Husband of a friend telling off my child

[900cherry]

I was invited out this morning with some neighbours who are good friends. The husband is known to be snappy and to have little patience with his own children.
In the space of an hour, he told my 4 year old daughter to 'stop whining' and in a cafe, he snapped at her to 'OI, STOP THAT' when she kicked him under the table ( she was doing it playfully). My daughter burst into tears and came and sat on my lap. When his wife, who is a good friend, commented to him to calm down, he agressively responded 'Its not my problem if she's crying cos I told her off for not kicking me. She can deal with it'.

She is 4.

I said nothing as I didn't want to upset his wife, who I know was mortified.

I really want to email him tomorrow to tell him how inappropriate and uncalled for it was. AIBU? What would you do?

PS. The ironic thing is, he has an obnoxious daughter who is really badly behaved and I say nothing!

My 3.5yo is going through a kicking stage at the moment. There is nothing 'playful' about it and we are coming down on her like a ton of bricks when she does it. If she kicks anyone else, as well as us reading the riot act, I would be perfectly happy for the kicked person to be angry as well. I would expect it. It's not acceptable.

I feel like I must be some sort of dinosaur. I don't see what's wrong with expecting a standard of behaviour from a 4 year old? And kicking definitely wouldn't be on my list of things I would allow (even if it was "playful"). We used to sit the kids in the car on the way to some event and the phrase was "normal rules apply" and they would nod and laugh - but they knew that meant good behaviour, and we'd previously spelt out that meant no whining, no climbing on tables, licking windows, messing about.

But then I have one simple rule

Do what you're told, when you're told, the first time you're told.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work as well when they're grownup

So this child is going to school in September? What if she decides to playfully kick another child, is the teacher to wait for the OP to come at the end of the day to discipline her? Or is there going to be a discussion between the OP and the teacher about "acceptable" tones of voice? Is the teacher expected to say "now johnny I can raise my voice to tick you off but I can't for little jane here because her mummy doesn't like it"

FFS

Just as an asides.....I honestly despise 'whining' - whether it be my own brats or someone else's. I won't tolerate whining when out from my kids and will remove them from the company until it stops.

I would never tell someone else's kid to 'stop whining' but God knows I have wanted to - so very very much.

My good pal's kid is a right whiner.....and he really makes me grit my teeth in irritation.

My daughter is not 'Obnoxious', a 'brat', a 'dick' or any of the other names mumsnetters have been posting. You have almost no information on which to base such extreme and unjustified comments.

Having said that I have read responses with interest (and mild amusement)

The question I have now, is then - at what piont Would you consider an over the top response? Or are there no limits to an adult's right to anger in response to a (possibly misjudged) action of a young child?

Would you shout at a stranger's child in a cafe? I'm sure most wouldn't. You'd probably get lamped one by the parent!

I thought children generally cried anyway when they were told off?
Mine does but then she is only 19 months.
She didn't speak to my mum for a day when she told her off!

900cherry but this wasn't a stranger, it was your friend and you were sitting right beside your daughter letting her kick him.

FM - Sorry, should have been clearer.
In a different situation - had it been a stranger. The responses on here are referring to an adults right to address bad behaviour. Should we all go round then, telling off other kids, rather than requesting the parents do it, in their own way.

Whose right is it?

Haven't read all the thread but I assume the consensus is that yabvu. Even if the kicking WAS playful (which you didn't see) it can still be annoying and an invasion of space and I think your friends dp was well within his rights to tell her off. There is also the possibility that the kicking was more painful than she intended.
YANBU about the whining though. I would consider that to be your place to sort out.

900cherry... These are friends of yours, no? You refer to their daughter as 'obnoxious'... they might think the same of your daughter, also questionning your parenting as you failed to stop your daughter from whining and then from kicking.

You don't think that what this friend did was reasonable, many people here think he was very reasonable. It's not nice to be around a badly behaved child - granted that it might not be the normal behaviour - it wasn't nice of his wife to tell him to 'calm down' either. You compounded his annoyance by pandering to your daughter's tears, easily done, but the wrong thing to do. You treated him like a bully when he isn't.

There are obviously limits to an adult's right to respond to the behaviour of a child and to be honest, I've never seen non-parents act in any way that is inappropriate. Sharp words are sometimes necessary, he didn't lay hands on your daughter. I'd say that's the outer marker really - hands off unless it's in the circumstances as described by pictish regarding a child not leaving her dog alone.

Your last question... would I shout at a child in a cafe? Not shout, no, because I don't shout, but I would certainly be sharp if a child was behaving brattishly and encroaching on my space in the way your daughter was.

If you write that e-mail, you will embarrass yourself, really.

gruffalo, so the right to tell off a kid, is based on if it hurt or not. Do you really think that?

900cherry if your four year old was kicking me I am afraid I would also say "oi stop it" and probably tell you to ask your child to behave please. I am 29 and I dont tolerate that sort of nonsense so it isnt an age thing. Going to far is when a child is behaving in a fairly harmless way, the parent IS dealing with it (which you werent, your child kicked another person and when they were rightfully upset about it you cuddled her and effectively told her with your actions that her behaviour was fine) and you still roar at the child over their heads.

I am sure your daughter is lovely but she still needs to keep her hands and feet to herself and be polite in restaurants and it is up to you to teach her those basic social standards.

I wouldn't shout, but you can still show anger without shouting.

I would show any other persons child that they had made me angry by kicking me in a cafe or anywhere else. Stranger or not. Your dd wasn't a stranger to this man though.

Personally, I wouldn't tell a child to stop whining, because I don't think 4yo's really know what that means, but if I had previously told them that I wanted them to go off and play or otherwise made it clear that I wanted to be left in peace and they had then gone on to kick me, I would let them know that I was cross in angry tone of voice.

I wouldn't shout, or do anything to humiliate or belittle a child, and maybe this man wouldn't have mean to do any of these things either. But children can try your patience, and I think that if a child is doing that, it's up to the parents to ensure that the child stays out of that persons way, or allow them to face the consequence without allowing them up on to a lap for cuddles and sympathy afterwards.

X-posted. In answer to your most recent question I would consider it my business to tell off any child, stranger or otherwise, who was physically doing something to me that was either irritating or painful if their parent was doing nothing about it.

Witch etc, No I think HE embarrassed himself by not controlling his anger.

I said nothing to save my friends discomfort. She was clearly uncomfortable.

I think it sounds as though he went a bit over the top with his reaction.

I think when you tell other people's kids off (and I have no issue with people telling my girls off) you have to do it a bit more gently than you would your own kids as I think it has more impact sometimes from a non-parent and can be a bit of a shock to them (my DDs always look v sheepish when told off by friends or family members as opposed to me), a strange adult shouting at them can be quite scarey.

I think an email from yourself would be OTT thought, I would just leave it but make sure next time you are out with the family that you say something to your DD before he does.

just wanted to add my tuppence worth...

YABU I'm afraid.

I agree he could have spoken to her differently, but if he felt he had to say something, then he was within his rights to do so.

I agree with a prev poster who said that your DC needs to be told that not everyone will rect the same way and may not realise she is intending to be 'playful'. I think sometimes that even if they ae at the age to realise right from wrong that they don't always know how rough they can be in their playfulness. Unless someone tells them, how can they know?

My DD is the same age and has does similar things before so I'm not an angel parent of an angel child

I am guilty of shouting or being hard on her sometimes and I do honestly try to keep it to appropriate occasions (like this morning when she had drawn on the pale sofa with a black biro 2mins before leaving for school ) .

No-one would like to have their DC spoken to in a sharp way, deserving or not, whoever it is from.

However, I would hope that a grown-up would feel they could stop my child from doing something which is going to hurt someone or herself or going to damage something. It would only ever be my fault for not doing it myself/taking my eye off her for a milisecond too long. I am the adult responsible for her. No-one else. I would take it as a reflection on my parenting skills if some-one has to say something, and it would remind me to be more vigilant for a future occasion.

Any time DD is left with someone I trust, I make sure they know that they have freedom to discipline if needed, and I say it in front of her so that she knows it has been said. She has to understand that other grown-ups can and will do this aswell as me and DH.

900cherry I've asked a few questions further up the thead, mainly who has decided this man is a bad tempered arse, if he is so,and his daughter is obnoxious why did you go?

And you have a slight double standard, you called his daughter obnoxious and yet your are at others using the same language to your daughter - if you can't take it you shouldn't dish it out.

If someone else's child repeatedly kicked me and the parent was ignoring it I would speak to the child - remember this wasn't a planned controlled lets all use this as an examplar of good parenting situation, he was out to lunch, he got caught on the shin and he reacted - a kick on the shins can hurt like a bugger. I might even have sworn

I had a granny scream in the face of my child in a sift play area and she was put right in no uncetain terms but the situation was different, my child and hers were falling out. What you do not seem to get OP is that your child is nor equal to an adult, she is not on the one hand only little and allowed to get away with kicking but on the other entitled to the same social polietness one might apply if an adult was repeatedily kicking me under the table.

I've not called your daughter any of those names.

I think it's you that still has a problem taking responsibility for your parenting and still blaming other people. FWIW?

If you did there needn't have been any response - ''over the top'' or otherwise.

Wondering about the limits of adults tolerance is just more avoidance?

And shouting strangers? In no way relevant.

If I was out with a friend and one of my kids was whining and kicking they wouldnt have to tell them off as I would be doing it myself. I just wouldnt put up with this kind of behaviour from my kids when they were little

YABU.

But then again I bellowed at a 4yo in a softplay place recently.

He was on one of the higher levels, repeatedly punching my 3yo DS in the stomach (who was cowering and sobbing 'please don't hit me' again and again). I'm sure the boy felt he was having a wonderful time, very playful, but DS clearly wasn't enjoying it.

I couldn't get up to them quickly enough so I simply bellowed in a voice like thunder 'I can see you'. The little shit tike jumped out of his skin like he'd been shot.

I'm sure his mother wouldn't have appreciated my speaking to him like that if she had been aware of what was going on, tough.

900cherry did you read my post? I said that even if it was just annoying your friends dp was right to tell your child off. She was invading his personal space and she is 4. My 3 year old would know not to do that.

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