can i ask how much your dp/ dh does at home?

[hugeleyoutnumbered]

i mean in terms of getting up with the children, housework, and sharing the responsibilities of parenthood?

Spuddybean - I see your point to some extent, DP and I also split costs 50/50 despite me earning much less than him. We used to earn about the same, but I decided to quit my job to do a PhD, which obviously does not pay a lot - I was adamant from the start that I'd keep paying my own way during this though, and didn't want him to feel he had to support or subsidise me.

SoI don't agree men should have to support women. But your partner seems to want it both ways - an independent 'feminist' woman when it comes to paying the bills, but at the same time a traditional housewife doing all the housework and cooking his dinner and ironing his shirts. That would not work for me at all. If you have a 50/50 split financially, then you have the same when it comes to housework and childcare etc. Otherwise it is not fair or equal at all.

Sorry but he sounds very unpleasant. As for wearing dirty clothes instead of doing washing, being happy to live in squalor etc - I would not even live with a housemate who had an attitude like that (been there!) never mind a partner or husband! I really don't think you should have children with him. Will he have the same attitude to them - leaving everything to you because he'd be happy for them to wear filthy clothes, sit in dirty nappies, not eat properly etc?

waterrat - yes my father is a narcissist and wont share anything with anyone. if i have anything he doesn't have he goes mad and shouts at my mum and she makes me give it to him!!
all very weird!

As for you having to 'earn' cinema tickets, meals out etc by doing chores for him - WTF? Do you seriously think that's normal?

i have made it very clear that if dc's happen he will change or i will leave. I am going to start it tomo i think - he is back then from work and i will tell him to do his own laundry!

ephiny - i think if i'm home all day and he's at work and i have the time i can so 'i'll do your shirts if you take me to the cinema tonight'.

"i have made it very clear that if dc's happen he will change or i will leave."

Do you think it's a realistic possibility that he might change? If not, and if you really mean what you say, is it a good idea to have children with someone you know from the start you will probably end up leaving?

my DH earns more than me as I earn fuck all. Am a SAHM. But I have free access to 'our money' that he earns in a financial sense by going to work. He can only work because I take care of the DC and our home. He's worked out (for insurance purposes) that if I died he'd have to pay someone £45K to replace me! Not sure if I was pleased or not :o

i think i will discuss it with him and if we cant find a common ground then i will make my decision. However i think he will prob offer to pay for a cleaner! the money thing is harder as i genuinely see his point as well as mine.

spuddybean - I cant recommend enough how helpful some therapy for you would be - your own childhood has taught you this is normal - it isn't. It's about being with someone who is loving and open - and who thinks that their partner matters more than money. Have a look at the BACP website - some counselling could be really helpful as you talk through the relationship and the problems - I personally would suggest you go alone rather than have relationship counselling - as its just so valuable to have a look at how your family background got you to where you are today.

I also think its absolutely horrible that you would have to 'earn' cinema tickets..sorry..but that is so awful. There is nothing wrong with cleaning if you want to do it - I understand that in a way far more than the money - but this man is supposed to love you - it just so sad that he counts the pennies and sees them as 'his' and it as a 'punishment' to have to share it with you.

Perhaps you can fix this - if he is willing to look at how his own childhood has shapped his grasping of money - but first, have a hard think about it all from your own perspective.

Do you want your cchildren watching you 'earn' a nice night out from their father? He will not change with kids - its too ingrained - he will only change if he seriously sets his mind to look at things differently.

happymm - i really dont like the idea of 1 pot of money as i wouldnt want either of us knowing what we spent our money on too much. Also i knew 1 couple that did that and it was awful, they just questioned each other over every penny withdrawn and stopped buying each other birthday and xmas gifts as it was all from the same pot so it wasn't really a gift!

Waterrat - thanks for the advice i dont think its as big an issue as you do however, and altho i grew up seeing it on a very odd scale i do believe some things should be separate. i do think tho he needs to be more sensitive to my lack of money and offer to pay more without an incentive!

totally agree with water spud, and fwiw i'm only 29, spent 8 years from 17 with an ex who saw money like yours, and I have to say being with someone who's the complete opposite is such a refreshing change, to know how a normal relationship functions it's odd but nice as well.

(ref the money thing one pot) XH & I had one pot - was a nightmare, he would spend spend spend until it was lal gone, (incl bills & food) I would try to balance the account but we were never in credit always in debt. he earnt it so he spent it - sad thing was at the time he was spending mine as well.

now we have our own accounts all money into and a joint for bills, honestly i'll never have one account again, however I have no issue with DP having my bank card & using it if he needs to & likewise the other way. or I give him my share for a night out (if we go out as a couple I have issues over standing at the bar buying my own drinks so I give DP say £30 towards the night & he does the rest).

Davids - yes that's what we do too.

Although now i'm about to lose my job i wont be able to put anything in! Got an interview on Tuesday tho so fingers crossed.

Cheers everyone for your advice xx

About the money thing - I've thought about this a lot as I feel the same way to some extent. I wouldn't want to have completely pooled money either, it's nice to have your own separate account and have it not be anyone's business what you do with it!

I also think it's fine and good to pay 50/50 when you can (as long as you're going 50/50 on the housework too!). But the part you're struggling with - why should he have to share 'his' money - the way I see it is that when you marry or form a partnership (or most of all when you start a family), it's not the same as being friends in a house-share. What that means is you start thinking of you and him (and DC) as a unit rather than just individuals who happen to live in the same house, so decisions are made for the overall good of that unit rather than on the basis of what is technically 'fair'. If you think like that, then it doesn't make any sense to have one partner taking out loans or going into their overdraft or running down savings etc (all of which I've heard of) to pay their half, when you have enough income as a couple to cover the costs without doing that. Maybe it's not exactly fair - it's maybe not very fair when a woman has to give up a fulfilling if low-paid job to stay at home with young children, because paying for childcare would be uneconomical - but sometimes it has to be done as it's the choice that makes the most sense for the family as a whole.

Honestly I think if someone's so precious about ringfencing their 'own' stuff and so reluctant to part with a penny of their money for anything other than their own personal needs and wishes, they'd be happier single, and certainly happier not having children! It doesn't sound an attitude very compatible with family life.

Ephiny - i know what you mean. when we first moved in together i said something about sharing stuff and paying for each other he said (now get this!) 'i've never paid for anyone else i've ever lived with' i had to calmly point out he'd never lived with anyone, and he said yes i have 'at uni and in the army' he didn't see the difference between me and a housemate. I said 'i'm sure they didn't wash your pants or fuck you either'!
He does acknowledge now tho that he has below average emotional iq.

This is what happens when women make bad career choices and earn only pin money. I earned 10x my children's father. We all know money is power and gives women choice so why do so many shoot their career to pieces (usually sacrificed on the altar of a man for a life of scrubbing his floors and his children) or pick low paid work in the first place? Make sure your daughters don't do so.

Xenia - but what if your skills lie in the professions which are traditionally low paid? sometimes the career picks you as it were and sadly we live in a society which has arbitrarily selected male professions as valuable - ie high paid, and traditionally female professions as not valuable and therefore low paid.

Well done you tho for having the foresight to choose a well paid job. Out of interest is that one of the reasons you chose it or were your skills leaning that way too?

xenia because I happen to think having dcs is a valid and valuable choice!.

He: cleans bathroom, puts laundry on, feeds cats, half of child bathing, half cooking, half washing up, puts bins out, kills spiders, cooks the roast dinners
I do the rest.

I agree, if its not important to you then you dont need to look into it so deeply - although I do think everyone should have some counselling ...to make sure they arent repeating patterns from their childhood - I had it and found it amazing, thats the only reason I recommend it.

Perhaps part of the reason I cant understand this is because my career is something I love, money would never come into my choices, luckily it earns me enough money to live and enjoy life but I wouldnt ever do a different job for more money, Id rather have less stuff and go without holidays etc. - it sounds as though it's the same for you. So - I cant understand why people value money so much ie. want to hold onto it while their partner goes without. I agree that one pot thing is a bad idea, I have my own account - but my partner wouldnt want me to go without while he had more than me..thats the thing.

I do think you need to think very hard - and talk to him very clearly - about child care/ maternity leave though - and point out that stopping work even for a year - to look after HIS children - will affect your career for the rest of your life. I would hope he would see that the money coming in has to be for both of you, once you are doing childcare.

To all you SAHMs, I want say this:

Without you, your DHs would not be able to go out and work. He is not keeping you, you are enabling him to go to work by providing childcare for the children. Children made by both of you. Never be fooled into thinking that housework is your responsibility because "you're at home and I'm at work all day." To raise a child well is a demanding full-time job and if you were paying a professional CM or nanny, you would not be expecting her to do all the laundry and cooking and cleaning.

I am a working mother (full time) and I have no feelings on the SAHM v WOHM debate. I think both are very valid choices for their own reasons. The point is that regardless of which category you fall into, housework is independent of it and should be split equally between partners.

As for 'bad career choices'. Well, when a man has the same paternity rights as a woman, when childcare is free, when the gap between women's pay and male pay has disappeared, and when women are not conditioned from the moment they are born to expect that even if they do work childcare and domestic responsibility will still largely fall to them, THEN we can accuse women of making bad career choices.

Lots as i n most of it.

i have told my DP that the only reason he can do the things he does is because i do the things i do. He knows this and does say he couldn't cope without me and would never want to go back to his (shudder) bachelor days of itchy pants and supernoodles.
Its just translating that into sharing & doing more! Also i work much less hours than him so i see why he thinks i should do it all.
But if i get this job on Tues i will be out of the house more than him and i've told him things will change.

Spuddy he sounds selfish, clever and manipulative TBH. Words are easy. As you are finding out, they're often not followed up with action.

As a single mother (i.e. not in a relationship) I am prepared to admit that maybe I don't know the first thing about relationships. But I definitely know what doesn't work, and massive financial inequality is one of them, as is an unfair division of domestic chores. Leaving your partner to pick up your dirty socks and skiddy pants is a massive sign of disrespect.

I have friends in happy marriages and what stands out in these is that regardless of who does what, and who earns what, the best way to determine the fairness in your relationship is that you should both have an equal amount of free time. Also you should not have to ask permission to do things or for money from one partner to do them (although these things should always be discussed as a mark of respect for each other and to make sure there are no miscommunications over money).

When i was at uni my womens studies (i didn't take that it was an optional module) lecturers would have described (rather scathingly) those women who say my husband does 50% of chores as 'post feminists'.

They felt that by going down the 'parity begins at home' route women had been distracted from the real bigger issue and focussed on domestic issues (as had traditionally been a womens domain).

They believed rather than a bottom up approach of trying to change society with small domestic changes hoping to filter up to equal pay what it was actually doing was perpetuating a myth that equality had been reached because someone had shared the washing up.

What they argued was that women had thought small and only of themselves - so as long as he shares everything i'm fine kind of attitude rather than continuing on to fight for further equality.

It was said that this smoke and mirrors illusion of equality stopped feminism - a bit like the empowerment of nudity argument.

Anyway, i think it is an interesting point but i'm not sure what the other options for them would have been.