to think that the middle-classes suck the very soul out of parenting (and life in generally actually)?

[bejeezus]

Ive been on/reading a few threads- about Unconditional Parenting, Attachment Parenting, Steiner blah blah blah. 99.9% of each of these 'philosophies' is common sense, the other 0.1% is deranged and warped interpretation of what started out as a description of common sense.

I am sick of people researching and 'reading round' subjects, analyzing and LABELLING EVERY activity and aspect of growing kids. People (and animals!) have been doing it since time began.

Is it because middle-classers have all been raised by nannies/ have no parental role-models/ have poles up their asses/ lack imagination/ HAVE no intuition/ have no faith in their abilities/ need to feel superior - WHAT is it??

What is wrong with intuition, spontaneity and getting it wrong? in fact I bet my socks there is some research some-where, that says that those are essential aspects of child-rearing and if you dont embrace them whole-heartedly, your childrens teeth will fall out/ they will loose the ability to speak and be in prison by the age of 25 years and 7 months.

Why am I bothered?;

I said on a Steiner thread in parenting that 'I hate wooden toys and all they stand for'

Then I got to thinking; actually I hate what they now stand for but I DONT hate wooden toys. I love wooden toys; the smell, the feel, the memories. But we used to scavenge the tips for timber/rob neighbours fence posts then get dad/grandad/uncle to help us build go karts/benches/huts with an excess of nail string and glue. Where is the soul and creativity in parents spending a weeks/ a months wage (or even a penny) on some imported sustainably sourced wooden toy fashioned by a stranger or mass produced in a factory? It has no more educational/ developmental value than a brightly coloured plastic toy. It is not more enjoyable for the child. It is more enjoyable for the parents BECAUSE IT LOOKS NICE IN THEIR HOUSE!!

Middle class parents are like the anti-Rastamouse;

'always there to make a good thing bad'

Class War- Bring it!

Not quite northernrock - I think you have to let them help themseleves,,,,

its funny how its ok if you have a big house and relatively middle class to do the hippy laid back, messy house, unruly children thing (and I know quite a few in that group) but if you're poor/in a small house its looked down on and disgusting :(

YummyHoney- I think the OP has already replied to that point, quite sensibly, I thought. When the middle class becomes an oppressed minority, the comparison will be valid.

It must be nice to be naturally very confident in your own ability as a parent. Some people (like me) are/have been anxious about it and maybe that's why we look things up in books, to validate what we're doing. With time, I've felt better and more secure and don't do this all the time, but I can understand it and I think it's a bit mean and cocky to pick on it. And I find that whole "we just chuck em into the streets with a packet of sweets and let them punch each other and they've turned out MARVELLOUS" crew just as irritating.

Also is this 'loud parenting' a mumsnet myth or do you have to live in certain parts of the country to hear it? I've never encountered it. Although I do sometimes hear people talking to their kids and explaining things. Is that what the problem is?

I like cooking though, so I would make cute mini dinners out of whatever I was having, minus anything spicy.
My ds was potty trained with the reliable method of bribery, if that helps anyone. (jelly beans on the toilet!)

I was not naturally confident as a parent - if anything, I had trouble bonding, and spent months in a haze of anxiety. I said earlier that I am glad I never discovered MN then as a lot of stuff would have gone against my natural inclinations and it would have made me MORE anxious!

I think posters need to be very careful with all this labelled/prescriptive stuff. You must NOT wean early/do purees/controlled crying etc You MUST co sleep/buy a sling/ bf til 3 yo etc

Most of us do whatever suits I think - a bit of this, a bit of that. And that is how it should be. Apart from warnings about really dangerous behaviour,,,

The only place I have really come across the religious zealots of this or that parenting style is on internet parenting forums. I imagine in day to day life people are to busy getting on with their own to be debating the merits of playpens as tiny cages or FF'ders as lazy whatnots.

YANBU to think that some of these things have gotten so pretentious and obnoxious....but YABU take it out on people who buy sensible wooden toys .

As others have said (but I can't resist chipping in) you do the research because you have 9 months to kill, you are used to researching, and you want to do a good 'job' at being a mother, because you love your baby. When bubba arrives you are on your own, know no-one, cut off from your workmates, and the magic of the internet is there at the end of your sofa. Forums (fora) full of friendly types all able to suggest how you might do your new job better, and then you leave the house 3 months later transformed into a co-sleeping, exclusively breastfeeding, baby wearing mother (not me I was crap at BF'ing). Then happily you find Mumsnet and realise that it's ok not to do all that stuff (unless you want to) and just be yourself - thank god. I did BLW and really loved it, never gave my DD sweets until she was 3 but other than that am pretty laid back now. It's tough being a new mother in today's society, you do your best. The loud boasty mothers are the insecure lonely ones.

I think it's partly about educated mums with a lot of time on their hands who are used to researching, reading etc - now having kids when they're older than used to be the norm, too. Many of them, before kids, probably had busy jobs and in some ways they probably miss that intensity and busy-ness, so it gets transferred to the kids. I think a lot of the intense, cult-like beliefs in 'attachment parenting' and all of that comes from a profound fear of being wrong. So much uncertainty goes along with having kids: we don't know what they'll be like, what they'll do ... and people who have lots of time and energy and education and are used to being able to figure everything out can't stand the idea that they might be wrong about how to raise kids. In any way. Then add in some concerns about status and what people will say .. and you end up with these weird MC parenting cults! just my two cents. Oh and YES! about the 44 Scotland St series and the kid called Bertie: hilarious.

lequeen is completely correct about waiting until DC are ready to potty trian.
DD decided to ditch the nappies and did so happily around two. Unfortuantely she has a twin brother who was ot to be outdone...cue many many pairs of wet pants. Hideous.

I was therefore determined to wait until they were both 21 before doing the dry night thing. Unfortunately I got utterly pissed on holiday and forgot to put a night nappy on...voila dry nights at three.

The internet certainly has a lot to answer for. Although we had internet in 1999/2000 it never occured to me to look for baby advice on there.

The haze of anxiety and the messages from friends/hv etc stifled my natural inclinations. It really isn't that simple for some people. NOW I can and do follow them, but I needed guidance earlier on, and backup on things I thought were right, but couldn't be sure about when a lot of people were telling me the opposite.

I just don't get why some people CARE enough to diss mothers for doing things in certain ways. If you're so laid back, why do you have to slag other people off? I get it if you think your way is right and everyone else is wrong, but if you think it doesn't really matter that much how people raise their kids and they dont need to worry about it, why pick on people for doing it differently and wanting to do research?

I do think it's easy to cite "common sense" as being something easy. As others have said, it is only when you have relaxed a bit, and with some that is with dc 2, or later with dc1, that you can stop being anxious and let your common sense guide you.
As someone who knew fuck all about babies, had no friends with babies, and is the youngest in my family I wish I had read a couple of books instead of spending my pregnancy frantically looking for a flat and putting together Ikea furniture, because I might have had a clue what to do.
In my case I had various family members and friends all with definite ideas of what was right ,and I constantly felt I was doing it wrong.
If I did it again I would have the confidence to do it my way, and wouldnt worry.

Actually, I do think having twins helped me to avoid any first born anxiety...I knew from the off that I wouldn't be able to do a lot of the stuff being recommended so I let myself off. A recipe for guilt and angst free child rearing.

The only books I read were twins handbooks which are fab. They basically say 'do your best'. What's not to like?

I know it's AIBU. I just don't get why that breeds logical inconsistency.

Interesting LeQueen! I felt a bit robot like in the early months. I knew what needed to be done, and I did it. I didn't necessarily enjoy it. I did like our afternoon snuggles in front of Sky Plussed episodes of Law and Order and Without a Trace. And the bit when dh came home from work and brought me a G&T in the bath. My hour off! I talked to my HV about PND, but she seemed to think I was Ok.

To summarise: "oh everyone should just chill out, raise their kids with common sense, it doesn't matter that much EXCEPT YOU FUCKERS THAT WANT TO LOOK THINGS UP IN BOOKS, YOU MORONS"

"I just don't get why some people CARE enough to diss mothers for doing things in certain ways. If you're so laid back, why do you have to slag other people off?"

I think because much of this site is you MUST do it this way or you MUST NOT do this, and there is a lot of FEELING about this.

Sometimes it is nice to have a thread where we admit we don't give a shit about all this, and have managed to bring up happy kids anyway.