to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

bubbley, I know that some women would choose adoption over abortion and I think that's great. My DH is adopted, and I think his birth mother made an amazing sacrifice, knowing that he would have a better life through adoption.

To clarify: I would hate for a woman to be forced to continue a pregnancy if she wanted an abortion. I'm all about the woman having choice: to continue the pregnancy and keep the child, continue the pregnancy and give the child up for adoption or to terminate the pregnancy.

I also agree that the vegan comparison is relevant although I do slightly wonder how you can consider an animal's right to life but not a foetus'.

For me the woman'r right to not have to continue the pregnancy has to trump the fetus' right to life. I think there are too many situations where a pregnancy is not the best situation for mother or a potential child. ANd if the mother doesn't get to make that choice and we outsource it to someone who "knows better" to make the decision we go down a slippery slope.
Women who have to have an abortion (due to incest, rape, health, mental health or even just that don't want to have a child) will continue to have abortions, they will just go back to the bad old days where the women risk their lives as well in back alley abortions. Then you lose a women's life as well as a fetus.

"It gets dressed up in a concern for the fetus but mainly it's an attitude that if you have sex (especially without contraception) when you don't want kids it ought to be like a game of Russian roulette. It's basically a nasty form of slut shaming that's really damaging to our social fabric."

Ok, I'm not sure about this slut-shaming idea but are you trying to say that abortion is a legitimate form of contraception. Surely if you are choosing to have sex and you don't want children you should be taking precautions.

reminds me a few weeks ago I watched that film Vera Blake (set in the 1950s I think) about a woman who went around trying to enduce abortions illegally in pregnant women, sometimes with disastrous results. In the end she was arrested and imprisoned. In those days a wealthy woman had the option to have an abortion in a private nursing home because she could afford it and it was possible to get this done without any real difficulty. For a poorer woman, there was little she could do about an unwanted pregnancy except resort to a botch job which might kill the foetus and the mother or leave lasting health problems.

So with that in the back of my mind, I do support women having safe options and it not being an option for the wealthy alone. I do feel though it should be a point of view that you are permitted to stand by if you feel strongly that abortion is wrong, it is ending a life after all not having a toenail cut. I don't honestly see it as sexist to be prolife.

lola- i agree that people will always have abortions but i think that having them so readily available makes it seem more acceptable. As mentioned abortion is still illegal in Northern Ireland and this really doesn't seem to bother that many people. If it did I am sure there would be a lot more campaigning to have it legalised.

Ok Lola, but if you take the cases if incest/rape/life threatening conditions out of the equation then you are left with a lot of abortions that could have been avoided if proper precautions had been taken. Yes, there are some cases of contraceptive failure but there are also a lot of people out there who use abortion as contraception - do you think that in those situations a woman's choice to be irresponsible outweighs a foetus' right to life?

I agree scarlett.

I have also seen the film Vera Drake. The difference between then and now is that the stigma that exists around having a baby outside wedlock no longer exists and financial help is available.

Perhaps we could all look at this amnesty and perhaps some of us could do something meaningful to help women in appalling circumstances, rather than discuss how to phrase our opinions to people who continue the abuse of woman by using emotive weapons?

or perhaps balia you could try to understand where the other people are coming from even though you disagree with them?

People DO take precautions and sometimes STILL end up with a pregnancy.

I am fairly pro-life, would never (I don't think) have an abortion but have equally never been in the situation where I have had to consider it. I avoided testing in pregnancy because I knew that I would have my baby whatever testing showed.

However, that is ME and not another person. I like the idea of pro-life organsations where a woman wants to keep her pregnancy and find ways to do so. I am less happy at the idea of them in cases where a woman feels browbeaten into continuing a pregnancy she does not want for whatever reason.

I agree with the sanctity of life, I would hate to see abortion as another form of contraception (although I am aware this DOES happen) especially in young teenagers who have never been taught how to deal with the pressure of a boyfriend pushing them into a sexual relationship they didn't really want. Equally as a HV I despair when the mother with four/fivesix children already subject to child protection procedures announces the conception of another child. Is this child going to do well in this family - unlikely, what can the pro-lifers offer to support these children? I don't see much, just a great deal of marching, shock photos of aborted foetuses and propaganda as well as the picketing of abortion clinics. I would think more of them if they were out in the community volunteering for Homestart for example to support the families where extra children create additional pressure and might suffer without such support.

I am pro life and proud - although I held my sisters had whilst a dr stopped her babies heart in utero as it could not have survived once delivered.

It shook me and my faith and my beliefs but I would do it again.

It makes me feels sick that people get pregnant accidentally - really you would think that this country didn't have an NHS which provides free birth control - use it or be sure you can support your child emotionally and financially. Be a slut by all means but be a responsible one.

I am grateful I live in a society where no one but me gets to choose what happens to my body, be it termination or pregnancy. I am saddened to live in a society where men can and do take the choice away from women in terms of having sex in the first place. For me- my opinion only- being forced to continue a pregnancy if abortion was criminalised would be a very similar bodily violation.

Giving up a child for adoption has long term emotional consequences as does abortion as does pregnancy and motherhood if not totally wanted. Maybe as a society we should be more understanding and supportive and less judgmental.

Are you suggesting that the Nicaraguan woman are irresponsible? Or did you not bother to click the link? In which case, who is not bothering to understand where other people are coming from? I have no problem listening to a reasoned debate, but not when one side starts using the kind of emotive language so beloved of the pro-life lobby.

'People DO take precautions and sometimes STILL end up with a pregnancy."

Yes, pretentious, I did acknowledge that. I was asking specifically about those who are not taking precautions and are using abortion as their fallback plan - in those situation does Lola think that the mother's right to chose outweighs the foetus' right to life.

' As mentioned abortion is still illegal in Northern Ireland and this really doesn't seem to bother that many people. If it did I am sure there would be a lot more campaigning to have it legalised.'

Really? It doesn't bother that many people? Apart from the thousands of women who leave for mainland UK in order to have terminations?

As for campaigns,or a supposed lack of them,I can find reference to plenty of campaigns demanding the right for the women of NI to have access to abortion. In 2008 there was a major campaign,see here to which I can find plenty of references.

That's before we even mention the factor of the churches still having a stranglehold on life and politics there.

in flames- you have two have written consent from two doctors, who are often male, to have have an abortion. The pro choice feminists get pissed off about this too so you really can't win. Even when abortion is legal they still complain that it is too restricted.

It is really quite disingenuous to say that you acknowledge your thread is in bad taste,

I dont think the thread was in bad taste, i said I was sorry if it offended. Two different things. And I did report it. However after several posters continued to take my question in a way that it wasn't meant some poters did actually respond to my inital question.

Balia - could not open flash link on my phone. On computer now. Not sure why we should be supporting abortion though. Surely an end to abuse and access to contraception would be a better idea?

Here is a thread for you to talk about your own thoughts and feelings and experiences about abortion, leaving this woman and her situation out of it:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1235489-to-understand-why-some-people-have-a-problem-with-abortion

MadamCastaflore - seriously? Really? Women who have sex are sluts?

"Is that any woman who has an unwanted pregnancy?"

Here we go, the twisting starts. It's quite clear that wasn't what she was saying Lady.

letthereberock- of course I am aware that there are people campaigning in Northern Ireland to have abortion legalised, my university lecturer was heavily involved in this and at the time I was in agreement with her.

However, the fact that it is still illegal shows that it doesn't have the same level of support as what it does in other parts of the UK. The majority of my friends from Northern Ireland are university educated, and many do not attend church, however they are still pro life.