to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

...I really do have to go and pack now!!!!!

Bec, perhaps it is the being 'alive in the legal sense' that needs to be addressed then. I know that some people have referred to foetuses as parasites - I wonder do they then not consider parasites a living thing. Perhaps we should be looking at things from a biological point of view. In any case, considering that a foetus delivered at 24 weeks has a 50% chance of survival I would say that it is alive - would you disagree with that?

What about the life of a woman who doesn't want to continue with a pregnancy, or does she not matter?

Are you not at all bothered that women (generally poor and with less access to good medical care/contraception etc) in recent history have died because they did not have access to safe medical abortions, or does that not matter?

If you take away her right to a safe medical abortion and force her to continue with the pregnancy you are imposing your views on her by controlling her access to that procedure and taking away her right to make decisions about her own body.

"What I cannot respect is a person who believes that their beliefs are the only ones that matter."

Quite.

bubble It has been addressed - in the 1967 Abortion Act.

You are quite within - your legal - rights not to agree with its judgements.

Wrt 50% chance of survival. Dont think so. But even if that were the case, surviving does not neccessarily equate to any quality of life, does it?

Why does her right outweigh the right of another living thing? They are both alive, they both have beating hearts, why is one allowed to decide the fate of the other but not the other way around?

...right, really have got to go!

bec here

It's 47% at 24 weeks becaroo. gosh you really are terribly ignorant about foetal survival rates....

bubble sigh......for the very simple biological reason that the one is dependant on the other for its survival!!

We do not agree - that much is evident - and I see no prospect of us ever doing so...therefore I politely say "see ya" and am off to do stuff....

I have had two abortions, one when I was 16 and another when I was 18. For a long time I didn't really think about it, I thought I had done the right thing and that was that, end of story.

Now I'm 30 and have 3 DC's it is certainly having an effect on me and I can't stop thinking about what I did, surgically removing my own unborn child from my womb, I feel apalled by what I did

This is just my personal experience with abortion and how it has made me feel, I'm not judging anyone but myself by the way.

The reason why the abortion limits were not changed last time it was debated in Parliament was because there has been no significant change in outcome for very premature babies. There was no "I think/feel" involved in this decision, just medical evidence about survival rates. Not sure why talking about other countries is that relevant either - in Holland babies born under 25 weeks are not resuscitated, and I don't think that their society has combusted either. It doesn't mean that woudl necessarily be the right decision for the UK.

I find the abortion debate very difficult to understand really. I can totally understand why some people believe in the sanctity of life from conception (although I think that they should acknowledge that this is a faith based belief, and not in any way a fact). But I don't understand why they think their beliefs should be imposed on other people, whereas the prolife movement very much does think that they have the right, indeed the moral authority to do so.

I doubt very much that any views expressed by either 'side' have any influence on those with the opposing view. So the simple solution would be to celebrate the fact that in the UK it is an individual decision, not (on the whole) a political football, and for those who feel strongly that women should have alternative options to support the provision of better education and support for women, easier access to contraception, support for those in situations of domestic violence, easier access to counseling, more financial support for single mothers etc etc

When pro-lifers stop men raping women, then we can begin a debate to change the law. Until that happens, please keep your noses out. It's bad enough that we can't get justice for most rape victims, but to force them to give birth to the rapist's child is beyond horrific.

It seems you are not allowed to disagree with abortion on mumsnet - I agree, Lola.

I don't think you can ever argue that abortion is a morally correct thing to do. Even if making the mother go ahead with the pregnancy is also morally wrong.It is deliberately ending a life and that cannot be right. Practical, yes. The lesser of two evils, yes.

And I say that as someone who has had one and I will never stop feeling guilty about it now that I have children - why did they get to live, and not the one whose life I chose to end? I was very young and clueless but I still feel sadness and shame and that will never change. I don't understand why people get so militant and aggressive and forget that there are two lives involved in this choice, and sneer at people who call that second life a baby - it is a human being who given the choice would want to live and to deny that fact diminishes us as human beings.I agree that sometimes abortion is sadly necessary but it wouldn't hurt to approach the subject with a little humanity rather than bellowing abuse and shouts of 'anti feminist' at people who choose to acknowledge that.

I would not see it outlawed but I also think that it is used too freely as a method of contraception and often no respect or thought is paid to the fact that it is a human life - yes, a tiny one that is incapable of sustaining itself - but still a life. I hated the thread on here recently with the woman who seemed genuinely proud that she'd had an abortion and felt no shame or regret. I think you've got to feel something - it's inhuman not to - but it's so tied up with our culture of 'rights' - we have the RIGHT to an abortion and how dare anyone suggest we should feel bad about it or take responsibility for what we've done? I'm not saying that you need to be like me and have a burden of guilt on yourself for ever more but for God's sake, have a little respect for the fact that it was a life - your child's life in fact - you created it, and you chose to end it.

And yes I do believe in women's rights. But I also believe in responsibilities.

Flame away, I'm not sure I'll come back to see the abuse that will surely follow, I wanted to say my piece, not have an argument.

organictwat I know just how you feel.

Ayerobot. I think you maybe completely mad.

No one has said that a rape victim should be forced to have the baby. It was the first thing I said.

pinklovingfeminist - agree with your post entirely, I feel exactly the same way

I don't think you can accurately describe yourself as a feminist if those are your view pinkloving.

Are you so judgemntal of the men involved in the creation of a life?

Funny how they seem to escape the seemingly endless judging and moralising (yet of course they should also be allowed a say on a woman's right to abortion).

Should she wait until the trial happens and the rapist is found guilty before she has an abortion? Even I think post-natal abortion is a bit much.

If you restrict abortion to rape victims only, how does she prove she was raped? The vast majority of rape victims don't see their rapists found guilty.

YABU. I can understand why people may think they would never have an abortion - especially if within their religion it's a sin punishable by the eternal fire of hell etc BUT when people start moralising about what others should do with their bodies they cross a line imo.

So MB how would you determine if a woman was raped or not? Given that an incredibly small number of prosecutions are made and that court cases are usually many months down the line?

Would you be expecting doctors to cross examine women, and then to determine if their experience was bad enough to 'merit' an abortion? Sounds great

pinklovingfeminist- i have had tears in my eyes reading your post, I think if someone was to give you abuse they have something seriously wrong with them.

Also, anyone who says a baby born at 24 weeks is not a baby is totally devoid of any capacity for love or compassion. I am sure all the poor women who have had still borns at that stage or have tried desperately to will their babies to survive would be devastated to read that. What is wrong with people? A baby born at 24 weeks is still a baby, it was just born too soon.

But surely if you are pro life on the basis that all babies have a right to life, it's not then ok to say abortion is acceptable in cases of rape. Isn't that going against your own dearly held beliefs?

After all the babyconceived via is 'innocent' and 'has a right to life'

The baby is either alive or it isn't.

flippinada, I knew someone would say that sooner or later! I am a feminist. I believe in women's rights. And human rights.I understand abortion is sometimes the only option. I just don't think you can say it's morally right to end a life; and I don't agree with the pro choice attitude that you have the RIGHT to have an abortion without a second thought or use it as a form of contraception without a care or a thought for the fact that it WAS a life. If that makes me not a feminist to some people, fine.

I mean to say "the baby conceived via rape is 'innocent' and 'has a right to life'.