to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

A 8 week fetus can cry now?

Fucks sake, what emotive shit.

I support a woman's right to choose because being a mother is damn hard and I wouldn't wish it on anyone that didn't want to be a mother.

Have skimmed thread but I think I know where the OP is coming from.

I am very feminist and very atheist and pro-choice... but I do have a problem with abortion. I find the idea of it very upsetting, I don't think I could do it myself and I think it should be avoided if possible. I think the argument that it's a woman's body and a woman's right to choose may be in danger of overshadowing the fact that an abortion can be a horrible, traumatising thing with long-term consequences. (If it's not - if a woman has an abortion and feels fine about it - I am happy for her and don't judge her, in fact I think that's a good outcome - but it's not the story for everyone.)

That is not to say I would prescribe what another woman should do - I'm pro-choice and I believe it is her choice. There are circumstances where I can see it is the right choice. But just as with other things, I can support someone's right to choose without having to always think their choice is a good thing.

It is one of those political issues where from some people's POV, if you're not with us you're against us. You cannot be partly pro-choice. You cannot be pro-choice with some reservations. If you're not mouth-foamingly pro-choice, you must be a rightwing, bible-bashing moronic pro-life idiot.

I'm not aiming that at anyone on this thread, but I think it is an attitude some people have. In some matters, some people can't see that there are grey areas.

As has been stated, never realised how vehemently pro choice I was until this thread.

100%

In fact, I'm veering towards increase access to early medical terminations rather than long waits necessitating surgical intervention. Less stigma and judgementalness about abortion would lead to more women being able to make a choice earlier when abortion is safer and doesn't require KCL first, though by the by only a small proportion of terminations require that, rightly so. But hey, nice emotive point for an argument.

I'm so bloody glad I have the right to make a choice about my own body. Yes I may need someone else to aid in the carrying out of thatchiice but what would you advocate queenmary - that women terminate their own pregnancies and bleed to death? Because tha is what would happen if abortion were criminalised.

But hey, they'd deserve it for getting themselves pregnant in the first place right, all those who bleat on about contraception and 'sluts'. Nothing whatsoever convincing about the prolife argument coming from queenmary just offensive irrationality and refusal to answer questions.

And btw I think the arguments about what a fetus is capable of at what stage muddy the water. I see the progression of a zygote into an embryo into a fetus into a baby as a sliding scale - you could argue all day about where the cut-off is, because whatever measure you use, it keeps changing.

NotADudeExactly Sun 12-Jun-11 22:15:33
"the view i can not respect is i think termination is only ok if a women has been raped, if the child has disabilities but i am pro life at other times. well no you are not and why is a child conceived htrough rape or a child that has disabilities considered less worth"

I think there's another aspect to this (the rape part) - which is why this argument is so misogynistic: If women who have been raped are deemed to have the right to an abortion but those who consented to sex do not, that inevitably implies that women ought to somehow be punished for agreeing to have sex, ...

that one gets me to froth at the mouth every time I hear it! In fact I have much less sympathy with that point of view than with the opinion of people who think abortion is wrong no matter what.

I completely agree with this. Life is life or not, not some life is life.

there are very few issues in the world where you could get 100% concensus on what its the "right" or "wrong" thing to do. How many times do we look at other peoples choices or consider other peoples views and know (or hope) that we would act differently in their situation?

So going back to the OP - yes actually I can understand why some people take a firmly opposing stance to what I believe. Does that mean I dont listen or respect their rights to their views? No. I would hope that the same courtesy would be extended back.

I am a midwife.
i have worked in one of the busiest SCBU's in the country. We took referrals from across the UK

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! [grin} that will teach me to presume!

But tbh I find what you post even more horrifying now!

but as a healthcare professional QueenMary is still entitled to her own private opinion. In her professional capacity she would be bound by a professional code of conduct and we should assume that she would be professional and treat all women in her care with the same dignity and courtesy.

"There's an enormous difference between an embryo and an egg or sperm."

I didn't say "They are the same thing". I said "An embryo is no more alive than the sperm or the egg that precedes it".

And it isn't. It is made up of living cells and is hence "alive" but any organs in development are nowhere near functional. It has no consciousness.

"Embroys/foetuses/babies have their own unique genetic makeup"

You can't lump together embryos, fetuses, and babies. Those are different things. Just like the egg is not the chick, an embryo is not a baby. Unless you learn correct terminology, you will forever be confused on this issue and wonder why people "kill babies".

The vast majority of abortions take place in the first twelve weeks. These days, many take place within the first eight weeks, through chemical means. I would seriously doubt that your Dr Nathanson would see those tiny lumps fight anything at all.

As I said further down the thread, there is a case to be made for banning abortion after a certain point of the pregnancy and I would not be surprised if the limit for abortion is lowered from 24 weeks at some point. However, the only way you can make this case is if you are rational about it all and stop confusing a 1 inch lump of cells with an actual person with a right to life.

"But just as with other things, I can support someone's right to choose without having to always think their choice is a good thing."

Very well said.

Learningtofly I meant with regards to 24 weekers surviving without serious health problems not her personal opinions.

I agree - it would not surprise me either if the 24 weeks point is lowered and it would be a well justified debate given the ages of preterm babies that survive at 24 weeks and below.

sorry misinterpreted that

its been a long day and i appear to have lost the ability to read

A sperm or an egg contains DNA with half the information neccessary to grow a baby. That does not make it half a baby. A fertilised egg isn't a baby, either, it's a fertilised egg. A tadpole is not a frog, a caterpillar is not a butterfly, I am not a granny.

And an embryo is not a baby.

It's an embryo. A pre-foetus. An amazing little thing which may grow into a foetus, but not a baby.

And you know what? At the embyronic stage, I think that if a woman's circumstances are such that carrying the pregnancy on will be tremendulously damaging to her and her family and she wishes not to continue, it's a sad fact that sometimes this does happen, and I support her right to make an informed, thought-through decision.

A sperm or an egg contains DNA with half the information neccessary to grow a baby. That does not make it half a baby. A fertilised egg isn't a baby, either, it's a fertilised egg. A tadpole is not a frog, a caterpillar is not a butterfly, I am not a granny

That has to be one of the most sensible posts on this thread imo!

I am sitting on the fence with this one, but i would just like to say I think Queen Mary has put her points of view across in a very calm eloquent way and has behaved with great dignity in the face of what I consider some pretty nasty heckling.

fairydoll, i think you may be reading a difefernt thread to this. either that or you are choosing to ignore QM's attempts to offend and guilt-trip using heavy emotional terminology.

BTw did we get an answer from MNHQ about locking down usernames once a poster has posted on a thread

Fairydoll are you reading the same thread as me?

I have noticed QM has had at least one post deleted, so not that calmy and eloquently

Interesting version of fence sitting there fairydoll

fairydoll
Thankyou
valium
I have no idea why a post of mine was deleted, I wasn't even aware that it had been. I can't find where that is.
I can only imagine that it was because someone objected to my use of the term "pro abort" as shorthand for someone who is "pro legal abortion".
I have never resorted to the kind of vulgar ad hominems that have been meted out to me here.
Although I have never complained, I have no doubt that if I did, I could have numerous posts here deleted.
It seems that the most offensive thing about my posts here is my ability to continue posting a clear defence of my pov, uncowed by the attempts of the hecklers to shout me down.

I wondered ho long it would be before someone posted that!

how

" I wondered ho long it would be before someone posted that! "

Well you need wonder no longer.
But what about nationaltrusses question.
Is the fetus is the video alive?

And I'll add a question of my own:
Is it human?