to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

if the mothers life being in danger was a genuine argument then why does the baby have to be killed before it is born?
Why can't it just be born early and take it's chances?

There are many reasons why going through pregnancy is detremental to the woman's health.

I know you mentioned earlier about 24 weekers surviving but I'm presuming you haven't spent time in a SCUBU?

"In answer to the question of the rape victim: visiting more violence on her by either inducing a miscarriage with a massive overdose of hormones, or by opening up her cervix and scraping out the living being inside, is not a kindness."

so labour and childbirth is kinder to her body?

"In answer to the question of the rape victim: visiting more violence on her by either inducing a miscarriage with a massive overdose of hormones, or by opening up her cervix and scraping out the living being inside, is not a kindness."

As BooyHoo said. Plus you aren't taking into account the mental/emotional damage that carrying to term would inflict on some rape victims.

" a pregnant woman cannot hand the baby to someone else without removing it from her uterus. in order for the baby to survive outside of teh uterus it must have reached a certain point of gestation. tehrefore in order to remove a baby from teh uterus and keep it alive, a pregnant woman woul dhave to remain pregnant for several months. removing the baby before this point is called a termination "

This is simply not true.
Many babies are killed in utero before they are born.
This is done by intracardiac injection of kcl under ultrasound guidance amnio.
This is done precisely because if they were simply delivered they may well live.

valium
" I know you mentioned earlier about 24 weekers surviving but I'm presuming you haven't spent time in a SCUBU? "

I am a midwife.
i have worked in one of the busiest SCBU's in the country. We took referrals from across the UK.

"What the pro-choicers won't address is why it's ok to end another human life. We all started out that way -- as a tiny, defenceless 'bunch of cells'. Nothing was added to us genetically before we were born. Why does the bigger person get to choose?"

This was addressed a number of times on this thread. It is a bit rich to avoid reading the thread and then say we don't address the question.

An embryo is not "human life", i.e. a person. An embryo is nothing but a cluster of cells, a seed that might become a person if left in the right circumstances (in vivo). It is no more alive than the sperm or the egg that precedes it. It is not a person in the biological sense and it is not a person in the legal sense.

That is why it is OK to terminate it while it is not OK to kill a person.

sorry queen but what exactky s false about what i posted?

"Many babies are killed in utero before they are born.
This is done by intracardiac injection of kcl under ultrasound guidance amnio.
This is done precisely because if they were simply delivered they may well live"

this has no relevance to my post.

FreudianSlipper - my point is that the pro-choice argument is driven by political (left-wing) ideology rather than a genuine concern for people. If that ideology shifted and suddenly said abortions at 30 weeks were okay, I suspect most of the supporters of this ideology would go along with it - and fuck the consequences.

"Labour and childbirth are natural physiological processes."

does that make them kinder or physically easier?

mdowdall So you know what people are thinking and the motivation behind it more than they do? You could make a fortune with this skill!

"If that ideology shifted and suddenly said abortions at 30 weeks were okay, I suspect most of the supporters of this ideology would go along with it - and fuck the consequences."

why dont you ask people rather than guessing what they would do?

"Labour and childbirth are natural physiological processes."

So is sexual intercourse. But context makes a huge difference.

"I don't think it's particularly helpful to want to pigeon hole people on either side of the debate. I personally resent people wanting to put me into a Daily Mail reading Conservative pigeon hole, and I don't want to pigeon hole pro-choicers either."

read my post again.

boohoo
You said " removing the baby before this point is called a termination "
the point you referred to was viability ( which of course is not a fixed point in any case)
But abortions are carried out way beyond viability.
This is precisely why some unborn babies are killed by an injection to the heart BEFORE they are born. That is, to ensure that an abortion doesn't result in the distressing circumstane of a baby being born alive.
This has happened on many occasions and people don' t like it when that happens.
It's a bit unnerving when the baby you thought you had aborted comes out and gives a little cry.

I'm not sure your point there NationalTruss, for those women abortion was wrong therefore you think it is wrong for all women? I could also come up with the same number of testimonials showing the other side of that argument, but what does that prove?

IMO the group you have mentioned do not have to have abortions, so allowing abortions should not change a thing for those who do not want them. Whereas banning abortions would negatively affect those for whom not aborting is, was or will be a wrong decision.

as you are a midwife you are aware that many women go into labour far earlier than expected, if a baby were to be delivered early this would have to be organised are women to be placed in mother baby homes until its time to make sure babies are quickly taken away after birth

also you know that jsut because a girl has started to have periods that does not mean her body is ready to carry a baby but she can become pregnant. in many developing countries the leading cause of death among young teenagers (often younger) is because of pregnancy and childbirth

"It's a bit unnerving when the baby you thought you had aborted comes out and gives a little cry."

dont project.

queenmary, since more than 90% of terminations are done long long long before viability (if you take viability as 24 weeks), i think that your argument about needing to stop the baby's heart before they are born is a little faux-naive. the vast majority of terminations are not carried out on babies who would survive outside the womb.

queenie is a midwife,god help us all,I pity your patients I really do.

i'm not disputing that there may be a need to debate limits, nor your earlier points that some women, if offered practical support and help, may choose not to abort.

but it seems to me that any sensible debate about abortion ought to focus more on the 90% of abortions which are done within the first 10 weeks (i think that was the statistic on the link earlier) rather than getting bogged down in a debate about late termination which is almost a separate subject in my opinion.

so anyone who is right wing in their politics is more genuinely concerned for the people

why not start another thread on anti feminist left wing politics oh and forgot the anti lesbian stance too because we all are after all. you might be surprised that even christian tory supporters beleive women should have the choice to have control over their body

no one is comfortable with late abortions, no one celebrates abortion but what many do beleive in strongly from both the right and left side of political support is that women have right to have control oer their bodies

It's a bit unnerving when the baby you thought you had aborted comes out and gives a little cry

See for me that is one of the main reasons why abortion should be available safely and as early as posible. So no mistakes can be made.

see link here For me it is a bundle of cells at the begining but I start to feel diffrenlty as the fetus begins to resemble what I consider a baby. Again an emotional response but I think a natural one for many people.