to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

queenmary. Shall I find that video of the 12 year old rape victim delivering and raising her baby, shunned by her community? Or the one about the woman who spends her life in poverty? Or what about those that bleed to death following a home abortion?

Crapola
But is the fetus in the video
a) Alive?
b) Human?

Alive / human - no, it's an 11 week post-conception foetus that has no chance of survival if it were 'born' then.

It still makes no odds to my stance that women should have the right to chose whether to continue a pregnancy.

I think that website is not balanced. I'm not sure how helpful it is for women who have had, or need, terminations to see that. It may help some make a choice to keep their baby. It will make make torture themselves. That is wrong.

I think women should be able to have easier access to free, early as possible terminations, with unbiased support pre, during and post termination.

Full stop.

Ok lets say that it is a baby or human. Would we agree that a baby doesnt have capacity to make decisions? And that any young child isnt able to make decisions so the parents make those decisions for them?

I say this because the medical profession make clinical decisions every day on behalf of patients deemed not have capacity and therefore unable to make that decision with them. If that decision, based on sound clinical reasoning, meant that treatment was withdrawn then would we agree that that was in the patients best interests? but if this meant the patient was to certainly die (like for example in withdrawl of treatment for persistent vegetative state) would this mean that those clinicans and legal professionals involved would be accountable for that death? And if it is agreed that this is aceptable why arent terminations on medical grounds also acceptable if it is judged to be in the mother or baby's best interests?

I come from this from a medical angle mainly because this was why I ended a pregnancy, based on medical evidence and two senior consultant opinions that continuing my pregnancy would either be not viable or have horrendous consequences for the child.

I have no respect for pro lifers as I was once invited into a marquee with my mates in the middle of town , for a 'little chat.' In fact we were shown a video of a woman having an abortion.

Totally unsuitable scare tactics for a bunch of 14 year olds without parental permission.

why would I watch that? I have had two terminations.

Is it alive? Depends what you consider alive.
Is it human? Potentially human....it is a human fetus though.

If that fetus was a rape victim and only twelve should she have been forced to keep the baby?

sorry, the result of rape.

National and Queen. Come on it's rather odd to avoid answering these questions. When is life okay to take? Or is abortion always wrong?

That film is a disgusting piece of propaganda - in parts it is actually a number of stills glued together. They speed up parts of it so the fetus looks like it is in distress. It is rubbish. Plants react to stimulus, that doesn't mean they feel pain. Just shows the lengths these people will go to.

I don't know why people's political leanings are at all relevant when discussing this issue. And by the way I do mean 'discuss' instead of the ranting/indulging in tub-thumping rhetoric/emotional hyperbole which seems to be the pro-lifers stock in trade.

As an aside I can spot at least two pro choicers on here who I know of (from other posts) that are right wing or maybe even libertarian. It's not a party political issue. To suggest it is suggests little or not understanding of how important this is to women everywhere.

NationalTruss, you mention being appalled by the vitriol on this thread. Well, so am I. Oddly enough though, all sorts of nasty comments from pro-lifers seem to be passing under your radar. Why is that?

I'll highlight one for you. A poster called Scarlett got dreadfully upset when I questioned a poster who stated that she was pro-life and told me to piss off, simply for stating my own opinion. She then inferred that a poster who had an abortion would be prepared to kill her own children if it suited her. When I asked her to apologise for this revolting comment (as well as others) she went strangely quiet.

As for watching that video (which is no doubt another piece of emotive pro life propaganda), I'll do that when pro-lifers can answer the following question:

How are you going to stop women having abortions? I notice that precisely none of you have even attempted to answer this question. I strongly suspect it is because you can't.

One thing I have noticed and am surprised no-body else has - queenmary is an extraordinarily prolific poster for someone who is both a midwife and mother to 6 children. Both very time consuming roles.

Where does she find the time, I wonder!

Perhaps we should post a film of some poor, vulnerable, desparate soul dying on a dirty kitchen floor after an illegal abortion. And then we can post the questions - was she alive? Was she human?

Perhaps Queen WashesWithCare?

flippinada, good point "How are you going to stop women having abortions?"

2 close female relatives of mine had abortions many years before they were legalised. both women were highly educated and financially well off, and i presume it is because of this that they had access to a safe procedure by a qualified doctor rather than needing to resort to any kind of 'backstreet' method.

if abortions were banned, they would still happen, but access to qualified doctors would once again be restricted to those women with the money to pay for it. i imagine there would be a thriving blackmarket, for want of a better word, and i cannot see how this would be progress.

Come on balia don't be silly - people like that don't exist in pro-life land (although if they did, it's ok for that to happen because they are probably sluts who had sex and enjoyed it).

flipinnada- you have once again taken my comments completely out of context........ anything to get your point across regardless of how ridiculous it was. Me telling you to piss off was NOT in response to your comments about abortion, but actually in response to your opinion on what defined a feminist.

My comment on killing a born child was in response to a comment about feeling no remorse about having a an abortion as the mothers life was more important. Again you are being intentionally emotive and I am not getting into that game.

I would urge any rational person to go back and read my comments from the start and in context before believing this drivel.

Now I am off to watch coronation street as any attempts to have a civilised discussion will lead to me being abused and having my comments twisted by women who will always find an excuse for anything...........

By the way I feel no remorse or regret about one of my terminations.

Read posts - you were being v emotive ... And it was unwarranted. 'drivel' believed.

For anyone wondering on earth I'm on about, here's a direct quote from scarlett:

"yes, i wonder if they would be prepared to sacrifice their own, living children for themselves too..........."

I realise sometimes comments can be taken out of context so if anyone would l would like to read the context, and decide for themselves, it's on page 8 of this thread.

yes, and if they do they will see another women, who had actually had an abortion, also found the comments of the mother who had no remorse offensive too. My comment was flippant but obviously did not mean I actually expected the mothers to kill their own children. I was merely pointing out how heartless they were being.

A living child is very different to a fetus.

I didn't think it was flippant and neither did the poster who you were referring to.

I see you are not going to apologise.

Point made, I think

look, this is going absolutely no where. Some people think that abortion for whatever reason they see fit is acceptable. Some, like myself do not.

Where do we go from here? Abortion is legal in the uk is legal so therefore the pro choice brigade should just be content and stop shouting down anyone that disagrees with them. If they do want to argue about it at least come up with an argument beyond "what if someone was raped/too young/ too poor". This an easy way out as it is emotive but it was certainly never an argument I heard from the legal academics when I was studying law.

People who are pro-choice use the rape argument because if you say abortion is wrong in all circumstances then you include child rape and incest. If you think abortion is permissible in cases like this then you are pro-choice afaic. Yu don't have to support these mythical women having abortion after abortion for a laugh to be pro-choice.