To think abusing someone for having ginger hair is as bad as racism?

[joogle]

Carrot-top, copper-top, ginger-nut, ginger minger, Duracell, Ronald McDonald. These taunts can make people's lives a misery.

If race is defined as:

an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, especially formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

Then we can assume that racism is hate or intolerance of another human being, primarily because of the way they look.

I don't know whether 'gingerism' could be classed as a form of racism, likely not, but do people acknowlegde that it is as bad as racism?

I think it's the myriad of things which go with red hair which adds fuel to the fire - pale, non tannable skin, pale/sparse eyelashes, millions of freckles....I speak as the proud owner of all these things.

On the other hand, once women are grown up, they are seen as attractive - it's in school that their lives can be made miserable. I think the boys have it much harder.

The you look at Damian Lewis and you realise how ridiculous it all is.

But it's still not right, ariesgirl - and I speak as someone who also had freckles, no eyelashes or eyebrows to speak of and pale ("space ghost") skin - it should still be stomped on by adults when they hear chidlren saying it, not joined in with.

IMO it's not nice but not comparable with racism

I dont think having red hair puts you into a different race group. But I would say the abuse people get is something pretty close to racism.

Dadof2, I don't know about lynched, but plenty of people have been killed for being ginger. I've heard things about various ancient cultures, particularly the Romans and Egyptians. I read something once about Romans regarding red haired babies as bad luck, and leaving them to die. But then I've also read that red haired slaves often fetched higher prices in the Roman era too.

As for racist, I don't know if I'd exactly call it that. As a redhead, I don't think I face the same challenges as a black person. But I think it can be related to racism, maybe, and stems from some of the same ideas. It's not a coincidence that red hair is associated with the people who were living in Britain before the Romans and Saxons got here. I have often wondered if some of the prejudice comes from a sort of folk memory, if you like, or some resentment/fear/envy/contempt/mixture of the appearance of people looking a bit too indigenous for comfort. Bear in mind that the last 3 lots of invaders (Normans, Vikings, Anglo Saxons) come from peoples who are stereotypically blonde haired and blue eyed, although of course not all of them were. We look like the people who've been here longest. That can be a powerful thing.

But I think we also have privilege over nonwhite people. Because although we don't fit the beauty standard for white people, we can dye our hair and use fake tan to meet it if we want to, without too much difficulty. Not that we should have to, but we could. People from other ethnic groups don't have that option.

No it isn't 'as bad as racism'. It?s unpleasant, mean, dim witted etc and wrong but not as bad as racism.

I believe the reason why (and I?m not good at wording things so decipher what you can) it is as bigger deal as it is, is massively due to history- how many red headed people to you know who?s family were stolen from their country chained in boats and turned into slaves? Do you know many red heads that had there tongues cut out in the 50's or 60's in America for 'speaking out of line? Have red heads ever been made to sit or stand in different areas to blondes or brunettes on public transport?

People of a different race and by that I mean non white people (I?m sorry if that is worded badly can't think of a better way) have throughout history had it far far worse than red heads and its IMO almost belittling theirs and their ancestors struggle to be treated as equals.

Again to reiterate I think any bullying of any sort including being ridiculed for your appearance is abhorrent but I think the only and best way to tackle it is to teach our kids that it is unacceptable- I really don't think it would be appropriate to handle erm... victimisation of read heads in the same way as you would for people who are the victims of racism.

yes, thats it ohdoone
I have felt laughed at and picked on, never victimised

I've just been reading Wiki on red hair and this bit might be slightly relevant:
"Red hair was thought to be a mark of a beastly sexual desire and moral degeneration. A savage red-haired man is portrayed in the fable by Grimm brothers (Der Eisenhans) as the spirit of the forest of iron. Theophilus Presbyter describes how the blood of a red-haired young man is necessary to create gold from copper, in a mixture with the ashes of a basilisk.[51]

Montague Summers, in his translation of the Malleus Maleficarum,[52] notes that red hair and green eyes were thought to be the sign of a witch, a werewolf or a vampire during the Middle Ages;

Those whose hair is red, of a certain peculiar shade, are unmistakably vampires. It is significant that in ancient Egypt, as Manetho tells us, human sacrifices were offered at the grave of Osiris, and the victims were red-haired men who were burned, their ashes being scattered far and wide by winnowing-fans. It is held by some authorities that this was done to fertilize the fields and produce a bounteous harvest, red-hair symbolizing the golden wealth of the corn. But these men were called Typhonians, and were representatives not of Osiris but of his evil rival Typhon, whose hair was red."

Hurrah! I guess I don't help myself any by nicknaming myself thumbWITCH, do I?

YABU - it really isn't the same as racism at all.

My sister has ginger hair always hated it and now dyes it. My uncle used to take the piss out of her as a kid, and call her ginger nut. Funny thing was he was ginger too.

When I had my children I prayed they never had ginger hair.

ohdoone - in centuries past redheads were buried alive, burned as witches, ridiculed and persecuted.

SPB - awww and you have gorgeous hair! I've always wanted to be a proper redhead instead of a boring brunette!

Red haired children were considered to be unlucky in some cultures and lucky in others. Here, red hair for many century was associated with witchcraft and the upper classes did not like redhaired wet nurses (which is odd since we have had a few red haired monarchs, Henry VIII and Elizabeth I) spring to mind.

Don't think bullying someone for their hair colour is at all acceptable, but I don't think it is rascism, per se.

Joogle, not argueing that but the same treatment was dished out to non red headed people. Its just going back to far to really be relevent to this post, i'm talking about recent, modern day history shaping our views on whats acceptable, whats not.

I used to find it strange as a child for almost all adults (particularly old ladies) saying what beautiful hair I had, while the majority of my peers saw it as a negative feature. I didn't know who to believe.

I think it's easier for women, because to fit in with current beauty stereotypes, eyes have to be defined and skin flawless. If you look at red headed women (natural and dyed) who are considered beautiful - Christina Hendricks, Florence Welch, Rihanna, Karen Elson etc., without exception they have heavy mascara, eyeliner, usually brown eyebrows, and minimised freckles. Men and children don't usually wear make up so can't conform their looks to society's preference.

And ginger is a nasty word, particularly with a hard 'g'. It's a bit like calling a larger person 'fatso', but not offensive in the way calling a black person the n-word would be.

But the reason red heads are targeted here in England stems from these past events

So in that sense it is relevant

i don't think it's racism! it's not nice but it's NOT a race. It's a recessive gene and who knows who carries it.

I'd put it more on a parr with being short. A lot of assumptions are made, eg, short man syndrome. It's not seen as a desirable trait, especially for a man. Potential for teasing.

Ohdoone, I think the point is that redheads were targeted for this kind of behaviour because of being redheads. As for going back too far, deciding how far back we can go before something becomes irrelevant is colossally problematic, opens a massive can of worms and imho is impossible really. The fact is that things happening today can be very strongly influenced by things that happened a long time ago. Prejudice against redheads has some ancient roots. So it's entirely relevant to discuss those ancient roots in a conversation about whether prejudice against redheads is racist. One might argue that it's been racist in the past, linked in with the treatment of the Irish in the nineteenth century, for example.

But I still wouldn't say it's racist as such.

In Ireland where about 4% has red hair (might be less now that there are so many foreigners living here) we seem to have a similar reaction to red haired children. There are regularly threads on an irish forum i visit where people are outraged because some thoughtless stranger said something like "oh at least your daughter not your son got the red hair" or "maybe it'll become less red as he gets older".

DuelingFanjo - can you explain the reason why you think that?

Is it? I would have thought it was more down to the fact that in a class room full of brown and blonde hair a red head would stand out- in the same way the spotty or overweight kids do. I don't think that many, if any red heads have had it suggested to them that they should be burned at the stake or are witches- maybe i'm wrong on that but I think its normally the nasty naff insults that are in the OP that are used to insult red heads. Whereas its ahhh (its hard to find the correct words sometimes) normally from what i've witnessed and what i've heard about more 'relevent' abuse that is used in racial attacks e.g. the 'go home' 'slave' 'N**r' 'bomber' type comments (i feel a prat typing all that).

Flange- I get what you're saying.

Like another posted said though it isn't racism as red heads aren't a race.

ohdoone - it probably is still relevant because it goes down the generations. Children learn it from their parents who got it from their parents and so on - back for decades and more.

Or we could just fall back on the ol' "they're all just jealous" chestnut.

Ohdoone, the issue of what constitutes a race and what doesn't is socially defined anyway. There isn't a lot of scientific basis for the concept of race, and as a concept it doesn't have to be set in stone. Not all definitions are based on skin colour. The UN definition, for example, allows for discrimination based on nationality:

"the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life"

Red hair is traditionally associated with certain nationalities. So I think in a British context, it has some roots in something this definition would consider to be racist, although I don't think it's racist now. But obviously some people with red hair were being killed for it a long time before Britain even started interfering in Ireland, so it isn't all about that.

I think it's easier for women, because to fit in with current beauty stereotypes, eyes have to be defined and skin flawless. If you look at red headed women (natural and dyed) who are considered beautiful - Christina Hendricks, Florence Welch, Rihanna, Karen Elson etc., without exception they have heavy mascara, eyeliner, usually brown eyebrows, and minimised freckles. Men and children don't usually wear make up so can't conform their looks to society's preference.

Definitely. I look like a completely different person once my skintone's been evened out and I've put my eyes on, as it were. Personally, I don't believe that anti ginger bullying has much to do with ancient folk superstitions. I think it comes down to most people seeing typical redhead colouring (including the pale skin and apparent lack of eyelashes) as ugly. And very small children, ie our peers when we start pre school, are as tactless as it comes - they're as put off by unattractive exteriors as adults are but they are less shy about admitting it. So right from age 3 or so, we all get the message that ginger = ugly.

But what's weird is that we all get the message from society as we grow up, that it's unacceptable to make nasty comments about someone's weight, facial features and so on but that it's kind of ok to be bitchy about ginger hair. It's not even considered rude, half the time . I remember this pregnant woman where I used to work saying to me, a redhead, that she wouldn't want a ginger baby. Probably didn't think for a moment that what she was saying was off in any way. But if I'd said "tbh I'd worry more about them inheriting your weird looking nose" she'd have rightly thought I was a complete bitch. Tis very strange...