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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

At what age does an innocent boy that needs protecting from a big scary man, become a big scary man?

321 replies

needanewname · 10/06/2011 10:48

Discuss.

OP posts:
sunshineandbooks · 10/06/2011 13:40

smashinghairday I think you are taking that thread out of context, which isn't really helpful in this thread.

Seriously, if you will find any woman who will guarantee to tell you that MORE men should be involved in childcare, it will be a feminist.

This doesn't mean she cannot discuss the issues surrounding male violence towards women (which is way, way more prevalent than female violence towards men) and women's fear of it on a completely different thread.

honeybee007 · 10/06/2011 13:42

You are not entitled to make my relationship with my children harder as a result by bandying them about as if they were some sort of fact.

I haven't banded anything around as fact, I have said time and again my opinion is that all men are NOT a danger. In MY personal experience WOMEN are the ones to be feared. However I do not fear men or women in general.

As previously stated my dp,father,and brother suffer from the same prejudice you do. It is unacceptable. My dp is already worrying about what toilet to use when he takes dd out without me, about holding her hand in the street when she's older and about her telling people he has baths her or dresses her when she reaches school age. She is 17 months old and he's already worrying. It is wrong that society has this impact on men because of a minority that do abuse.

I have already apologised for getting the wrong end of the stick re Kerry, this is an emotive subject for me and unfortunately reading words on a screen gives no indication of the persons tone. I read some of your comments as aggressive when you say they weren't, you know how you meant them and so I have said sorry.

I have also said sorry if at any point I've caused offence by not being clear that I agree all men are not to be feared. I 100% agree that society as a whole needs to stop demonising all men. I can't be any clearer.

bronze · 10/06/2011 13:44

I have three sons and I read threads like the one that inspired this one with absolute dread. It feels like one of those horrible dreams where you can't prove your innocence even though you know you are.
We're about to change ds1s school and one of the (many) attractions was that there would be male teachers. Yay for some positive role models.

StewieGriffinsMom · 10/06/2011 13:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DioneTheDiabolist · 10/06/2011 13:50

When I was studying childcare one of my tutors was a brilliant Norweigan man. He left the college having been appointed a Special Advisor to the government on early years education. When he left he made a point of saying how ridiculous it was that he could be granted a Special Advisor post, yet was never able to get a job in childcare in this country.Sad

MIFLAW · 10/06/2011 13:53

I accept your apology, Honeybee. But when I say what I do, it's because i'd get into exactly this row again with someone else - it's not aimed at you in particular. It's about anyone who uses, in this situation, the word "maybe" when they mean "is".

It's also about anyone - and i'm sure this includes no one here - who gives meaningful looks and says "you can't be too careful," or "no smoke without fire" or "you have to wonder why he'd WANT a job like that" or "we've all seen THAT sort before" and then waits for everyone else to nod in agreement.

And the main message i wanted to get across, and why I have kept hammering my point home, is that the people nodding in agreement are as much to blame as the people saying those things. Which is why, although I don't want to upset Kerry, or you, or anyone else for whom this is a difficult subject, I refuse to be one of those nodding.

"It is wrong that society has this impact on men because of a minority that do abuse." Yes, it is, and I really feel for your husband (incidentally, I take my daughters into the gents', because there aren't many paedos in there either) - but it's also wrong, and probably more dangerous, that we make no mention of the minority of WOMEN who abuse, nor of the thousands of abusers, men and women, who, rather than become scout masters or nursery nurses, take the easy option and keep it in the family.

If we want to protect our children, it would help if we worked out first who we actually need to protect them from and focus our attentions there, because this "man bad woman good" nonsense really isn't helping anyone, least of all the children at risk.

MIFLAW · 10/06/2011 14:04

Incidentally (again, open question) a question that was repeatedly raised - and ignored - on the oiginal thread was, "why is it all right to have "personal preferences" about men looking after children, but not about Jews, blacks or Asians? Why, in other words, was my school bully example pathetic?

Morloth · 10/06/2011 14:08

I too would quite like an answer to this question.

kerrymumbles · 10/06/2011 14:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

honeybee007 · 10/06/2011 14:09

miflaw

  • "man bad woman good" nonsense really isn't helping anyone, least of all the children at risk.

  • that we make no mention of the minority of WOMEN who abuse

  • thousands of abusers, men and women, who, rather than become scout masters or nursery nurses, take the easy option and keep it in the family.

Couldn't agree more miflaw. I've told dp to use the mens toilets, he wasn't worried about pedophiles IN the toilets but rather that he would be perceived to be a pedophile 'luring' her into the gents. I have no way of reassuring him because people do automatically assume the worst.

I feel helpless to make him more confident about taking dd out alone. He took her to the supermarket, she cried the whole way round because she was teething, he got dirty looks, sneers and asked what he thought he was doing, he replied 'shopping with my daughter', 'where's your wife?', 'I don't have one', 'oh that poor child being raised by a man' he was livid but happy he hadn't been accused of kidnap!

I also refuse to be a nodder alonger and sorry if that's how I came across earlier. I'm glad we got our wires straightened out, x posting took some things out of context I think but it was totally my fault.

needanewname · 10/06/2011 14:11

Kerry no one is having a go at you for having this view, but your experience is thankfully not the norm, therefore there is no justifiable reason for people to discriminate against men

OP posts:
kerrymumbles · 10/06/2011 14:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MIFLAW · 10/06/2011 14:13

No need to apologise Kerry, we understand each other now and that's the main thing.

needanewname · 10/06/2011 14:15

Ok now we're getting somewhere.

We need to make sure our children know they can tell us anything, that they shouldn't ever be scared and there should be no secrets, secrecy and guilt is part of the abuse.

Preventing men from working with children is not going to stop abuse, making children afraid of men us not going to stop abuse, paranoia is not going to stop abuse

OP posts:
honeybee007 · 10/06/2011 14:16

Incidentally (again, open question) a question that was repeatedly raised - and ignored - on the oiginal thread was, "why is it all right to have "personal preferences" about men looking after children, but not about Jews, blacks or Asians? Why, in other words, was my school bully example pathetic?

I called your example pathetic because I took it out of context. I took it as a bully being compared with sexual abuser. I took it as aggressive. You have since explained you were not being aggressive and I have apologised for thinking you were. I also apologise for saying you were pathetic,I was very wrong as consequent posts have made clear,

To answer the original question "why is it all right to have "personal preferences" about men looking after children, but not about Jews, blacks or Asians? "

It quite simply isn't right in any way shape or form.prejudice is prejudice no matter who it is aimed at. I have no answers on how to stop it happening though unfortunately.

MIFLAW · 10/06/2011 14:17

I don't know where the confidence comes from, to be honest. Obviously, it is easier when the child is obviously happy because then no one can misinterpret teething pains as sadness.

But I think a lot of it also comes from remembering that most people think it normal and desirable that a father takes his daughter out. This gives you the strength to ignore or even confront the occasional idiot.

I have to say, too, that I've never had it as bad as your man - I feel really bad for him. I hope things get better (and am sure they will), for his sake and for your daughter's.

needanewname · 10/06/2011 14:18

So can anyone answer my question now -at what age does an innocent boy who needs protecting from a big scary man become a big scary man?

OP posts:
MIFLAW · 10/06/2011 14:19

Thanks, honey - but, as I know you'll have guessed, what I'm really after is finding out how the cretins on the original thread square the one with the other?

You've answered, because you're not a cretin and you're decent. I bet they don't though. Which is a shame as I'd love to know how their heads work.

DioneTheDiabolist · 10/06/2011 14:22

I don't think anything is going to stop abuse. All we can do is our best to give the child the skills and provide them with an environment where they can feel confident in talking about it and know that it will be dealt with appropriately.

CrapolaDeVille · 10/06/2011 14:23

Bad form OP....thread about a thread.

Besides your hysterical misrepresentation of my POV makes you seem a little stupid and well, hysterical.

mistlethrush · 10/06/2011 14:24

needanew - based upon the comments from my son's teachers - potentially soon after they're 5. Sad

mistlethrush · 10/06/2011 14:25

Crapola - the OP has made it cleat that they were so outraged at the original title they could not bring themselves to use it - and that thread is full.

CrapolaDeVille · 10/06/2011 14:26

I wonder when preferring that a woman takes your three year old daughter to the toilet suddenly started to mean that all men are perverts?

DioneTheDiabolist · 10/06/2011 14:28

Needanewname, for most of them: Never. Most boys never become a big scary man.

Can I have a Wine now? Cos I answered your question and I got it right and it's past lunchtime on Friday?

honeybee007 · 10/06/2011 14:28

Thank you miflaw I too hope it improves. We both look young for our age (mid 20's) and often also get the 'teenage parent disapproval' which coupled with the 'you must have kidnapped that girl' makes things incredibly hard for him. He prefers we go out as a family at the minute but I feel really bad for him and dd missing out on quality time away from me.

Anyway I digress, back to the thread....

Needanewnames last post :

We need to make sure our children know they can tell us anything, that they shouldn't ever be scared and there should be no secrets, secrecy and guilt is part of the abuse.

Preventing men from working with children is not going to stop abuse, making children afraid of men us not going to stop abuse, paranoia is not going to stop abuse

Totally agree! 'x is a secret don't tell y' was never said in our home growing up because of my parents experiences. We were brought up that if someone told you it was a secret you MUST tell mum/dad. They got round keeping presents secret by always saying 'x is a surprise don't tell mum' seems extreme but it worked out well when I turned 12 and knew what happened as a 'secret' was something I had to tell my parents even though it was hard to do.

More men need to be encouraged to take up caring roles and teaching roles and pastoral care roles. Not all children have a positive male role model in their lives and so potentially only ever hear 'men are,evil,dangerous,scary etc' which clearly re creates the cycle of fear for the next generation.

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