At what age does an innocent boy that needs protecting from a big scary man, become a big scary man?

[needanewname]

Discuss.

I have been told at Parents evening that Ds has had to be reprimanded for rolling around on the floor with one of his friends. I'm sure if it had been one of his male friends, nothing would have been thought of it. It was one of his girl friends though - and the eyebrow that was lifted with the 'I'm sure that there was nothing untoward going on' was interesting.

Ds was 5 at the time btw.

I wonder whether the girl's parents were also told?

Honeybee - I have already said to Kerry that I have no wish to belittle, let alone mock, her experience. And I haven't attacked her either, except to say that she shouldn't be trying to make a "maybe" out of an "is".

"She hasn't plucked it out of the air that men can be dangerous." No one, including me, is saying that men can't be dangerous.

Do you know why I am so very, very pissed off by this subject? Because, as I made it quite clear on the other thread, I AM a man. And a dad. And I am tired of living in a society where I feel that people are looking at me and thinking, "i can't trust him with my kids." I do not like being afraid to approach a crying child in a supermarket in case someone assumes I am the problem rather than the solution. I do not like the fact that, when my daughter's friends come to my house and need help with the toilet - or even when my niece comes with her parents and they're looking busy when she needs her nappy changing, FFS - I find myself stopping and thinking, "no, I can't offer to help, that's going to look a bit odd, isn't it?" I am enraged when I go to the library alone and look at children's books that my daughter might like (or that I might want to read myself, as I am trying to launch myself as a children's author and need to do market research) and get asked why I am in a children's library alone, as if I am doing something wrong. I am sad that, when a new girl started at my daughter's nursery and I greeted her in the street, her mum (who hadn't met me yet) looked at me with fear and alarm. I am sick of the whole fucking thing, to be honest. Thank God i have daughters because i would hate to bring up a son to face this horse shit.

Now, I fully acknowledge Kerry's suffering and, if anyone did it to my daughters, I would want to open his or her face with a hammer. it is unacceptable, it is horrific, and most of all it is very very sad and unfair. And I absolutely get why she would then be afraid of men.

But letting this sort of prejudice stand unchallenged - "oh, well, it's just my experience, but i'm entitled to portray this prejudice as fact" is not on. It is not on for dads, like me, who have done nothing at all wrong but have to live their public lives under suspicion from strangers. It is not on for boys and men in general to have whole careers and lives closed down to them. it is not on for men to get beaten, sometimes to death, by braying mobs because of a misinterpreted innocent action towards a child.

so, I do apologise if Kerry or you think I have attacked her, mocked her or or belittled her. I mean, I haven't, but I apologise if that's the impression you come away with.

But i won't apologise for not letting publicly voiced prejudice stand without identifying it as such.

if you don't like that, so be it.

MIFLAW

Did you seriously get asked why you were in the kids' section of a library?

Well said miflaw

Yes, in Peckham in 2008.

Mind, they had a school group in, so it stands to reason I was on the prowl.

Sorry needanewname I know you want genuine answers from the crazy folk but the beginning of this thread was light hearted and tongue in cheek in the main, even if that was not your intention. I have stated several times I am firmly in the camp that all men are not a danger.

I do think miflaw was attacking Kerry. That is my opinion. Kerry may or may not feel attacked but I was giving responses to show that in some situations people who have been abused do have a generalised fear, they don't choose that fear and I think lumping them in with the knobs off the other thread is unfair. As I also stated there are others that have had similar experiences to Kerry won't have the same reaction or fear as her.

My dad was sexually abused by both male and female relatives, he had a blanket fear of men being allowed with me or my brother alone. My mum was also abused by both male and female family members and she had no blanket fear but did fear leaving us alone with family members, even those that had nothing to do with her abuse. This is what I base my opinion on that people react differently to abuse.

Not everyone who is afraid of men or women is a hysterical sees danger in every shadow kind of person.

It WAS sad, but I think the "reprimand" of a 5yo boy for playing with a 5yo girl is far sadder. Poor both of them, growing up in a society that sees children that way.

I have x posted and am sorry if I have caused offence with my opinion. I don't care if you're a man or a woman.

It is about risk management - a young man will have to pay higher car insurance than say a 60 year old female, because statistically he is more likely to drive recklessly and cause an accident. All insurance premiums are calculated on risk ( based on factual evidence ) All parents ( like me ) are doing is making a 'risk assessment' based on evidence, and as another poster has already pointed out - child abusers seek out professions where they have direct access to young children - that's a well documented fact.

"I do think miflaw was attacking Kerry. That is my opinion." you're entitled to it. But you're wrong.

Incidentally, i'm sure that "the knobs off the other thread" also had their reasons. Or the parents who brought them up had their reasons. Or someone in their street had their reasons. The fact they are knobs are nothing to do with whether or not they have their reasons.

Sadly, those reasons also impoverish our society for the 50% of it that is male and, also, for the vast majority of its pre-pubescnet members who are made to feel that many normal interactions with adults or even other children are wrong, shameful or frightening.

We are all afraid of something and it is often with very good reason. And those fears drive us and shape our conduct and our choices throughout life.

But, if those fears start having a negative impact on the rest of society, then it is incumbent upon us to do what we can to prevent that.

You and Kerry are entitled to your fears.

You are not entitled to make my relationship with my children harder as a result by bandying them about as if they were some sort of fact.

Long before I had my DS I came to the conclusion that it would not be possible to wholly protect my future children from sexual abuse without ruining their lives. So what to do?

Take precautions. Check out the environment that they are going to be in. Trust my instincts and go with them. Be trustworthy for my child, so that if anything does happen, they will tell me and trust me not to be angry with them and to do the right thing. This last bit is so important as abusers use threats and coercion to ensure the silence of the victims and often it is not the act of abuse that causes big future problems, but the silence, anger, shame and other things that follow it.

This is exactly why men should join forces with feminism. The current system disadvantages men as well as women. If more men were involved in childcare they would be viewed with less suspicion and maybe the profession itself would take on a higher status and better pay.

I am a feminist. I am also the mother of a son. I don't want men downtrodden into the ground. I want equality between men and women. Most things that benefit women will also turn out to benefit all decent men (though it may annoy some of the less decent men out there).

To be clear, I am not challenging the factual nature of the experiences mentioned, just saying that the fears arising are not facts.

But i won't apologise for not letting publicly voiced prejudice stand without identifying it as such.

I don't expect you too. I do think you're right and society as a whole is disgusting in it's attitude. My dp, father and brother suffer the same prejudice as you. I have said many times I agree all men are not a danger.some are. The same goes for women in my opinion and experience.

We share the same opinion miflaw.

"oh, well, it's just my experience, but i'm entitled to portray this prejudice as fact"

I understand why this is not an ok thing to do but was trying to show how it can and does happen. Again I'm sorry if I've offended you or got the wrong end of the stick with what you were saying to Kerry it was not my intention.

We have sloshes again miflaw will read posts before commenting

sloshes x posted

that is due to change soon as it discriminates against men in general. Women soon won't be able to get cheaper insurance based in their gender alone - quite right too

As far as men in caring professions, particularly teaching/childcare, is concerned: I want more of them. I want my son to grow up being inspired by the men and women around him.

I agree, Sunshine - as someone else pointed out, I've never heard a feminist come out with this sort of thing. It's ALWAYS the mothers who have "little princesses" and believe boys are made of slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails i.e. the borderline insane.

Stewiegriffiths - I am talking about feminists. The ones having attacks of the vapours at a man daring to be walking on a beach at the same time as a woman. The feminists on that thread who think it's perfectly reasonable to expect men to read women's minds and cross roads, take alternative routes and generally avoid being near women they don't know at all costs, lest she be scared.

miflaw that is really saddening. Even if you stood your ground it must make you so much more wary about approaching those situations. I hope you do go on to write your children's books.

I am a feminist and I feel really strongly about the impulse which suggests that all men are paedophiles. It is, IMO, a deeply conservative impulse based on the idea that all women are natural carers and should devote their lives to childcare, because that is a woman's role, and the opposing idea that men shouldn't be involved with children and that whoever is, is a bit suspect.

It's dressed up as concern about abuse but deep down, I think it is really about getting people back into their traditional roles. I do not think it is coincidence that all this is heating up in the last 10 years or so, as we are clearly becoming more conservative as a society (post-feminism, The NicknDave Show, etc).

Good post MIFLAW.
I just hope attitudes change when my son goes out into the big bad world.
I also have a nephew who worked as a manny in Australia.
His mum is a playgroup superviser and he was used to being around young children from a very early age.
He's a complete natural with small children and I always think that that should be the field he should go into now he's back in this country.
But having read this thread and the prejudice shown to male child care workers, maybe not.

Brilliant post MIFLAW. I have never been so angry over a thread before as I was yesterday with "that" one.

I just hope my sons stay far away from narrow minded woman with sick minds.