to try to find a male view on this?

[jbcbj]

I am posting here because I know this gets more traffic than anywhere else, and also because I know I will get genuine points of view - which is what I want right now. I have support at home, but of course they are all on my side and I really want some impartial comments (if possible, from any male MNers as well?)

I will try to be as factual and accurate as I can rather than biased in my own direction. Tricky though...

I always believed that DH and I were meant to be together, but about 6 weeks ago he told me that he was no longer sure that he loved me any more. He likes me, cares for me and fancies me but it's "the love thing" (I quote him). He felt that our marriage has been cold for the last 18 months - for me, this was a total shock as it was the first I knew of it.

As background, we have been married for 3 1/2 years, together for 5, have a 2.2 year old dd and a 3 month old ds. He felt that my style of parenting was too child-centred (I carry them in slings, keep them in our room - although not full-time co-sleep - and full-term breastfeed). He felt that I no longer loved him and this chipped away at his love for me until he realised that it had gone. I have tried to reassure him that I love him more than anything, and that I was struggling with a young child, return to work, difficulties and chronic pain breastfeeding and then a second - not easy - pregnancy and birth.

He felt that intimacy had gone (we had had sex a few times but he has a very high sex drive) - from my pov we couldn't be physical without the pressure to have sex, so I think subconsciously I avoided it. We have always done a lot of cuddling etc though, and I have always told him I loved him every day.

Since he told me, we have been going to Relate and trying to be more physical but he says that "the love thing" is not coming back - I am worried that he is expecting to wake up one morning to find it suddenly reappeared, or that he is not allowing himself to feel it. I don't know - which is why I would like other viewpoints.

I am aware that it is difficult to know the whole story (even I don't!) and therefore difficult to pass judgment, but is it common to assume that a wife in a fug of exhaustion and discomfort no longer loves you? And for it to then stop you loving her? Has anyone else been through this and did they get the feelings back - how?

My DH is a lovely, warm, funny man but seems very angry - it's like treading on eggshells. He can't tell me that he wants our marriage to continue, or that he doesn't. His actions say one thing and his words another - we still get on very very well and he treats me really well, but calls me cold. I am also a nice person, and also warm....I just tend to retreat when things get hard and put effort into not letting it show. We know that communication is an issue, and are working on that, but "the love thing" is the real sticking point - apparently this has happened in two previous relationships and they did not last. I feel very much that he blames me, though.

If anyone can shed light on where he is coming from to help me understand and try to fix this I would be so grateful.

I will give you a female perspective - he's a selfish, jealous child who's nose is out of joint because you are looking after your real children more than your man child.

I will give you DH's perspective - 'he's a cock and needs to grow up'.

Children are a joint project in most marriages. You do what you have to to get through the hard bits - and the first year is generally a hard bit IME. Both parents just get on with it. It is not the time for navel-gazing and self-centredness. If things haven't changed a year down the line, that might be the time for it - not now. It's like fretting about the wallpaper in the guest room while a hurricane is tearing the roof off.

havent read all of this but maybe he's found it hard to see you as anything but a mother what with the co-sleeping and long term BFing? then obv when he tries his luck he gets rejected i know that if i was a bloke i'd be hurt obv this is just my opinion but perhaps trying to make some couple time wouldnt hurt where no kids talk is allowed just focus on yourselves and your lives

anothermum
Well done for missing the point completely. The OP has asked for some
help in how her DH might be feeling
not in how he should be feeling

Glad to see some more sensible replies that are aghast that people seem to think the responsibility for maintaining a healthy marriage are the Op's alone

Bottom line...if my husband told me he no longer loved me, I would be taking steps to free him of me and find myself someone who did

I certainly would not be hanging around to see if I could change his mind by getting babysitters, digging out my sexy gear and sleeping with a man who wasn't 100% sure he even wanted me

so how long does he get to "decide" if you are good enough for him ?

if you aren't "good enough" now...when will you be ?

I don't think he has the right of veto any more...he has stated his case. I would be gone, the decision now clearly mine and mine alone.

oh my, the thickos are out in force today.

read the last line of the OP

'If anyone can shed light on where he is coming from to help me understand and try to fix this I would be so grateful.'

mac, you must be thick yourself if you thought for one moment that threads ever stay completely on topic

most of the recent replies have followed an evolving conversation, some of which will be helpful for Op to assist her in looking at all angles to her dilemma, some of which won't be helpful at all

if you put your personal life up for discussion, you have to accept that tangents will be followed

Op seems ok with it, as far as I can see

then again, you could always let her speak for herself

"If anyone can shed light on where he is coming from to help me understand and try to fix this I would be so grateful."

OK. I can shed light on where he is coming from. As I said earlier he's behaving like a selfish little child and can't see the bigger picture.

Can I help you to understand? No I can't because I don't understand it myself.

Fix this? TBH I'd be reluctant to try - he has registered his complaint and expects the inadquacies to be addressed. I think he is the one who needs to do the fixing - of his attitude, his selfishness and his immaturity. You both have children, you both should be focussing on them. If he can't see that, and see how " I was struggling with a young child, return to work, difficulties and chronic pain breastfeeding and then a second - not easy - pregnancy and birth" might make a difference to any relationship, I think he must be very very stupid.

jbcbj,
BIL and I have often discussed why mine and ex-H's relationship didn't survive the baby/toddler years and his and my DSis's has. The conclusion he comes to is that ex-H was too bloody selfish to cope with not being top priority any more. I'm inclined to agree with him, both about my ex-H and your H.

I think, for the sake of your sanity and emotional well being, that you need to give yourself a break. He doesn't love you any more? Well, that's his choice. You can't and shouldn't change yourself to suit his image of what a wife should be. Particularly if you make changes to the detriment of your parenting, you'll never get your DS's first months again.

I think writing is a good idea, as it helps you to think clearly about what you want to say. I agree that ultimatums are not the way forward - for either of you. A period of time in which you support and help each other without the pressure of making decisions, may be more helpful to both of you. If the counselling isn't working for you, then don't continue - the hour a week may be better spent in the bath together, or watching a film with a bottle of wine.

jbcjb - I wanted to answer the question you and others have asked 'what does she do about i?'

For a kick off it is absolutely clear you are killing yourself and your marriage and you need to stop. Women can have it all (ie a job and a family) but you are trying to do it all as well. You understandably feel totally knackered, overwhelmed, and exhausted. Again, I say listen to your husband, he is telling you the truth. He feels that he is right at the bottom of a long list of stuff in your head. No one is forcing that list on you but yourself. You are choosing to do it. Your husband is playing no part in that pressure you are putting it on ourself. Indeed, your husband said he was happy to leave childcare decisions to you.

At the risk of bringing down the MN forces of hell upon myself I strongly suggest you need to do the following:

1. You must insist on getting your chilren out of the bedroom and your husband in to it. Totally agree with Niceguy2 on this. Your children in your bed and husband on the sofa is no way to live.

1. Stop breast feeding. I am utterly gobsmacked you have gone back to work and still breast feeding just 3 months after a birth. My wife chose to stop after 3 months and we have 2 healthy intelligent well adjusted children. Get your husband helping out with formula feeding at night. At least he will feel as knackered as you are. I did it and your husband can too while you get a nights sleep. You will do yourself and your husband and your marriage a power of good and no harm to your children.

1. Share out house work equally, or better still get a cleaner in, so you are not doing it all. I agree with SGB on that every time.

1. Talk to your husband and tell him what you are doing to repair things. Work together, get him proprly involved with the childcare. He really is trying too by the sound of things. Men are totally unprepared for the arrival of children. You are talking to your friends. He has no one but you to tlk to and you are too busy.

There are no prizes for raising children. I think that like many women you have set the bar so high for yourself that you are setitng yourself up to fail.

Stop, get off the hamster wheel, get some perspective and let your husband back into your life. It's really clear you had no idea how he felt until this reached a crisis point - because you were so busy running on that wheel .

MoreBeta, some of the long list of stuff is going to be the basic necessities for running a household and keeping the children in it warm, clean, fed and safe. It may well be part of the problem that the OP's husband is "happy to leave childcare decisions to you" - that says, to me, that she's carrying all the responsibility for everything, and I wouldn't be happy with that.

Also I don't buy this "Men are totally unprepared for the arrival of children" stuff: no-one (male or female) really knows what it's like till they've been through it, but any competent adult can work out that it's going to be a huge life change. And shouldn't he have said something after the first child if he's finding it all so hard?

Specifically on the stopping breastfeeding, that's only helpful if her H can be persuaded to do his share of night feeds: if she still ends up doing all of them, and doesn't have any major problems with BFing, then formula is a lot more fuss at night.

Finally, doesn't it ring any alarm bells with you that this has happened in two of his previous relationships? That more than anything else suggests that the problem is him, not the OP.

FFS beta! She has a job - why should she give it up? perhaps they need the money anyway? It's not weird or freaky to bf for ages or to co-sleep. We co-slept for years with ours and I bf for years - as well as working full-time. DH didn't sulk and issue ultimatums.

It's not a hamster wheel - it's a life that happens to be very full of things that have to be done. And if she was to put someone further up the list of priorities I would suggest it is herself not her husband!

I can't beleive that so many intelligent posters are actually considering giving in to this childish adult who basically wants to get his rocks off more often.

Why does he think he should be more important than their 2 young children? or than the OP herself.

Oh yes and as for: ' Indeed, your husband said he was happy to leave childcare decisions to you." apart from the fundamental ones about extending bfing and co-sleeping that is.

Tallow - I am suggesting her DH share the load of looking after her home and children. She seems to have grabbed the responsbility.

Orm - I'm saying she has to give up something. She is killing herself. I suggested she give up BF - not her job. I know the usual howls of protest will follow on that suggestion but this is a crisis and something has to give.

She could give up her husband. But she doesn't want to.

Maybe she even should give up her husband. But that's not what she asked.

It's only a crisis for the husband.

Which makes me think he isn't that much of a husband to start with.

niceguy2 - thank you for your post. I am certainly aiming to say that I tried everything to make it work; I hope that he is too. Re the babies in the bedroom; dd (2 yo) is in her own room and generally remains there until the morning, although often wakes more than once a night so will find one of us (usually me - DH is a VERY heavy sleeper!) lying with her for some of the time. DS is too young to not be in our room, but he does have his own basket. Somehow nookie with a baby doesn't seem as bad as nookie with a toddler, so that hasn't been an issue. DH is happy to have him there as it is not recommended that they sleep in their own room for a few months yet. I think you are so right with your last sentence about less pressure/more sex (for us atm it is sexual acts rather than the full thing, for physical reasons), and we discussed this; it seems to help a little (although the catch-22 of intimacy/sex still exists).

superjobeespecs - he did feel rejected but now realises that it was not a rejection of him, rather a lack of desire for sex. now we have talked about it we have agreed that if there is not pressure for full sex every time it is a lot easier to be physical. It is a good idea to talk about something other than the children; we have fallen a bit into the trap of that being a main topic of conversation (I spend all day with them so I am a bit limited in experiences that do not involve the children. According to my totally correct fridge magnet - "I used to have a mind, now I have small children..." )

morebeta - thank you once again, you have put a lot of thought into your posts and I really appreciate that. I also hear what you are saying and have taken some steps towards that point - neither child is in our bed, ds is in a basket by the side of our bed and dd is in her own room. She does know that in the mornings she is welcome with us (DH bought a superking mattress about a year or so ago so that there was room for all of us) but she does not start off there. I will admit that that is a compromise on my part; my choice would be to have her with us but I completely recognise that for some (not all) families it has a detrimental effect on the marriage. DH is no longer on the sofa - hasn't been since all this came out really, one positive, anyway!

I was probably unclear; I have not gone back to work since ds - I did between the two of them and this "18 months of coldness" that DH has felt dates approximately back to that. Sorry for confusion.

Stopping breastfeeding is not an option for us, I have always been committed to full term breastfeeding and did everything I could to make sure this happened. It is not for everyone, I know that, but it is for me and DH has always totally supported that. He still does (or he says he does, anyway). He has always been fantastic about sharing the housework (he has a lower tolerance for mess than me...), we kind of have an unspoken division of labour that works for us. He does his bit with childcare too - to all intents and purposes (apart from the obvious...) a model husband!

wrt childcare decisions, early on he did say to my mother that he was happy for me to decide what we do with the children....I did not know this (so could not take advantage) until last week. We did discuss it, and he generally seemed happy with things. Formula feeding at night would not happen - he is too heavy a sleeper and doesn't wake when they do. So I would be awake anyway - as someone said, bf is just easier - i barely need to wake up!

I do feel the responsibility of looking after all 3 of them and the house, yes - atm that is my "job" (for which my degree didn't come close to preparing me....), but he certainly pulls his weight.

I would be very interested to know about the two other relationships where this has happened. What time-span did he suddenly decide he was no longer in love with them? It feels to me that there are three possible explanations

1. He's having an affair. It doesn't seem overly likely, but you have to accept the possibility that often people 'fall out of love' with someone because they have someone new on the horizon. It could be his way of preparing the ground for telling you.

2. He has an overly-romanticised and personalised view of love. For him love might be focused upon a two person relationship which is the most important thing in both of your lives. The advent of your children has disrupted this- he is no longer the single most important person in your life, and he is punishing you for this by withdrawing the love he doesn't feel is being treated with the due respect it deserves.

3. It's an attention-seeking ploy to redivert your efforts to revitalizing your marriage. He's threatening you in some sense in an effort to re-engage in the sexual part of your relationship that he doesn't feel satisfied by.

All of these or non of these could be true of course. What is true and immutable is that he has put the onus and burden of keeping your relationship together on YOU, despite the fact that it is both of you who are in this relationship. He wants more sex but is unwilling to make suggestions as to how it can be improved. He wants emotional intimacy, but can't draw a distinction between sex and intimacy. Fundamentally he wants the same level of care and attention he had before your children came along, but is unwilling to take on an adequete share of the burden to ensure that such a relationship is possible.

You need to confront him and tell him to make a decision. Either he wants to be in this relationship, or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then good bye and good luck to him, as he goes onto the fourth woman who THIS time will make him the centre of her world.

If he does then you need some clear ground rules, and one of those has to be honest discussion. He can't subtly blame you for everything that has gone wrong, and he can't get angry and storm off. You need to be able to talk without him getting aggressive, or you getting defensive. Schedule time alone. Send the children to your parents house, or get a baby sitter. Not for sex, or date-night, but so you can have an honest discussion without having to break it off, where there is nowhere for either of you to run.

good luck and well done lady

I can't add any more then except to express a slight sense of puzzlement.

"...pulls his weight....model husband"

The only thing that is left is "He felt that my style of parenting was too child-centred" and "I carry them in slings, keep them in our room - although not full-time co-sleep - and full-term breastfeed".

You do seem very fixed on that style of parenting and from your answer it is clear you are not going to budge one inch and that is the main issue you need to address. I suspect in reality you imposed it on your DH and his 'support' was basically just agreeing with you before DD1 came along because you were so adamant about it. Now having seen it in action for two years he doesn't want another two years of a child more or less permanently attached to you with the consequent impact on your relationship.

I hope you can sort something out with DH.

he doesn't want another two years of a child more or less permanently attached to you

his child - some men might feel proud of their partners for seeing bfing through rather than seeing it as threat.

Even a very hungry baby is not permanently feeding you know - and it's much less hassle than making up bottles.

MoreBeta, as lovely as he is, appears to be making that fundamental mistake that all us Relationship-board regulars are often accused of

applying your own standards to a given situation

us "man-haters" just tar all men the same, right ?

so, MB thinks all men are fundamentally decent, like him

I have a news flash

they are not

(Committing a cardinal sin of replying with reading pages 2-5).

Someone mentioned depression. Our experience was that dh was diagnosed with post-natal depression within 1-2 months of ds1 being born, mainly for feeling "blank, unloved, unable to feel, incapable of being a good dad, ignored, sidelined, without value" - all words he used at the time and that rung a bell with some of the themes you mentioned. Ds2 is 3 weeks old and we can already see some of those challenges resurfacing for him. I'm REALLY trying to remember to be affectionate towards him, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't rung true as I am just shattered. Anyway - I know it might be irrelevant and that some people (particularly men?) are reluctant to go to the drs about mental health issues but dh going on antidepressants short-term helped us no end. Good job he did as when he was sorted, I got pnd. I guess it is just like that for a few years and it is a matter of not giving up, or letting each other give up.

I am sure that is all old news, but PND in men is rarely discussed - I'd never heard it mentioned until dh was diagnosed.

Hope you find ways through this together.