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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to try to find a male view on this?

166 replies

jbcbj · 08/06/2011 15:12

I am posting here because I know this gets more traffic than anywhere else, and also because I know I will get genuine points of view - which is what I want right now. I have support at home, but of course they are all on my side and I really want some impartial comments (if possible, from any male MNers as well?)

I will try to be as factual and accurate as I can rather than biased in my own direction. Tricky though...

I always believed that DH and I were meant to be together, but about 6 weeks ago he told me that he was no longer sure that he loved me any more. He likes me, cares for me and fancies me but it's "the love thing" (I quote him). He felt that our marriage has been cold for the last 18 months - for me, this was a total shock as it was the first I knew of it.

As background, we have been married for 3 1/2 years, together for 5, have a 2.2 year old dd and a 3 month old ds. He felt that my style of parenting was too child-centred (I carry them in slings, keep them in our room - although not full-time co-sleep - and full-term breastfeed). He felt that I no longer loved him and this chipped away at his love for me until he realised that it had gone. I have tried to reassure him that I love him more than anything, and that I was struggling with a young child, return to work, difficulties and chronic pain breastfeeding and then a second - not easy - pregnancy and birth.

He felt that intimacy had gone (we had had sex a few times but he has a very high sex drive) - from my pov we couldn't be physical without the pressure to have sex, so I think subconsciously I avoided it. We have always done a lot of cuddling etc though, and I have always told him I loved him every day.

Since he told me, we have been going to Relate and trying to be more physical but he says that "the love thing" is not coming back - I am worried that he is expecting to wake up one morning to find it suddenly reappeared, or that he is not allowing himself to feel it. I don't know - which is why I would like other viewpoints.

I am aware that it is difficult to know the whole story (even I don't!) and therefore difficult to pass judgment, but is it common to assume that a wife in a fug of exhaustion and discomfort no longer loves you? And for it to then stop you loving her? Has anyone else been through this and did they get the feelings back - how?

My DH is a lovely, warm, funny man but seems very angry - it's like treading on eggshells. He can't tell me that he wants our marriage to continue, or that he doesn't. His actions say one thing and his words another - we still get on very very well and he treats me really well, but calls me cold. I am also a nice person, and also warm....I just tend to retreat when things get hard and put effort into not letting it show. We know that communication is an issue, and are working on that, but "the love thing" is the real sticking point - apparently this has happened in two previous relationships and they did not last. I feel very much that he blames me, though.

If anyone can shed light on where he is coming from to help me understand and try to fix this I would be so grateful.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 08/06/2011 22:10

I haven't experienced any "pattern"

I can see one, though, with the benefit of not being emotionally involved

OldMacEIEIO · 08/06/2011 22:13

well I can

mrswhiskerson · 08/06/2011 22:23

I think your dh is being very cruel telling you he does not feel love for you and calling you cold, fwiw you certainly dont sound like a cold hearted person.
If he feels unloved which can happen when a baby comes along he should have told you at the begining not a year and a half down the line and he certainly should not expect you to bend over backwards to please him in the hope he will again love you,
you would never feel secure in your marriage again if you thought he might leave you as soon as you have priorities other than him.
that said I do not think he is being intentionally cruel it could be he does not know how to deal with these feelings and so is lashing out but it is still not fair on you, you need to be able to talk to each other openly and honestly without mind games or blame.
For your part it is good that you realise you can withdraw when things are tough because you will be aware of it in future.

good luck I hope it works out for you and it does sound like you have a strong foundation that with a bit of work could become even stronger. Be knid to yourself and try to have some quality time just you and dh .
Our sex life dried right up for a while after ds because i just couldnt be bothered I felt hideous with my post birth belly and wanted to do nothing but sleep but I realised it could not go on and told dh I still fancied him I just felt really unsexy and tired, he made the effort to compliment me more and also gave me a gentle nudge towards the shower and make up bag whilst he looked after ds, it worked once I saw myself looking pretty and started getting compliments I felt better and we both made more effort to make love again as a result we are physically and emotionally closer and feel much better as a result.

OldMacEIEIO · 08/06/2011 22:27

good post mrs whiskers, you have it right imo

pickgo · 08/06/2011 22:51

For what it's worth I think he is definitely trying to justify something - some kind of guilty feeling he's got - but I'm not sure it is an affair in this instance.

It might be what he is actually saying - that he's not feeling love towards you and feels guilty for that and jealousy towards his DCs.

It might be that he's feeling trapped and that he doesn't want the life he's got...whatever.

BUT it's still incredibly immature to offload this on to you and try to make it your responsibility. Really try not to get sucked into that game. And don't feel like you should hold back your feelings. Why would you?

Yes try to express yourself calmly but it is important that you display the reaction he is invoking by saying he's fallen out of love with you. You would have to be an automaton not to have an emotional reaction to that.

Last thing - I think Relate is crap (unless you're very lucky and get a really good counsellor). Just listen to your own inner voice and try to get it clear yourself how you feel then tell him or write to him.

If he's not sincerely interested in addressing that equally with you then I think you should split promptly. Situations like this drag you down really quickly.

MoreBeta · 08/06/2011 22:51

Sorry but I disagree with 90% of the posts on here.The issue here seems pretty simple to me - but then I'm a bloke.

jbcbj - you asked for an impartial comment so here goes. I fully expect to be flamed for this.

From what you say your libido crashes when pregnant of breast feeding so with a 2 yr old and 3 month old we are basically talking about near enough 3 years where the physical side of your relationship has been falling, low or nil. Frankly, there are plenty of women on MN who would be pretty hacked off with that situation if the boot were on the foot and their DH had little or no libido for three years. Indeed there was just such a thread a few days ago and the female OP got huge sympathy - so the 'man bashing' in a lot of the posts on here is way out of order.

Your husband loves you and he loves your children. I don't think he is having an affair. It makes me grind my teeth when I women say 'oh men get jealous when children come along'. TOTAL UTTER TOSH!

Bottom line is your DH is telling you the truth. I agree with him. You have let the fact you have had children totally take over your life to the detriment of your physical and emotional relationship with your husband and he is begging you to let some balance back in your marriage.

If you push him away long enough - he will walk away. Then everyone on the thread will be proved right but you will be alone.

You know what has happened. You know why that happened. That is what needs addressing. Children are precious but in my view letting them take over your life to the detriment of your marriage is just wrong.

AnyFucker · 08/06/2011 22:58

MB, your opinion is as valid as anyone else's and Op asked for a male opinion which you have kindly provided

but please, don't jump on the "MN is full of man bashing" bandwagon, it doesn't become you

OldMacEIEIO · 08/06/2011 23:05

morebeta
all probably true, but now comes the tricky bit. what does she do about it ?

this is where I balked earlier, the person who is probably carrying 75% of the load (at the moment) is now asked to suck him off as well

its too much

Mumcentreplus · 08/06/2011 23:07

I agree Beta ...'Children are precious but in my view letting them take over your life to the detriment of your marriage is just wrong.' ...your job as a parent is to provide love and stability...to help your child grow and fly the nest..be a credit to you as a parent...but you have a partner in life and you must include them in your future....when your children leave ...you are together and making sure you have a good and functioning relationship is important

Mumcentreplus · 08/06/2011 23:10

I think it's about being honest with your partner..not about just sucking it up!...you don't feel sexy because ABC...you feel tired...you feel anxious ...you feel pissed off because of ABC...nothing wrong with wanting to just be together and chill ...you are not a bad parent...

BelfastBloke · 08/06/2011 23:54

AnyFucker says to MoreBeta "please, don't jump on the "MN is full of man bashing" bandwagon, it doesn't become you".

Why shouldn't he, if that's his reading of the situation?

As you say, the OP wants male opinions; MB gives one; he's told it's not 'becoming'.

I'm sure MB's like me, he's been around on Mumsnet long enough to know how threads go, and most of the time he can see that any digs about men, or sweeping generalisations, are just a necessary way for women to let off steam. No problem.

But if, in a rather more serious situation like this thread, it seems that the majority opinion could be wrong, surely it's worth pointing that out, especially when requested to do so?

pickgo · 09/06/2011 00:14

But the fact that there is room for people to express opinions is part of the problem.

The OP's partner, having told her he's fallen out of love, refuses to discuss the matter further or seriously try to make the relationship better.

That's a really effective way of positioning the OP to feel she's now got to bend over backwards to not upset her partner any further.

Meantime he has the luxury of mulling over his feelings until he's decided whether to continue in the relationship. Not fair or equal.

Mumcentreplus · 09/06/2011 00:29

She has to force the matter!...he has said something crucial and potentially devastating...explain your friggin self I say!..lets deal with this...

InTheNightKitchen · 09/06/2011 00:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LDNmummy · 09/06/2011 00:46

Lack of communication from both of you and lazy selfishness on his part.

blackeyedsusan · 09/06/2011 00:50

the op has offered her dh affection, which he then uses to pressure her for unwanted sex.

if she had a difficult birth things may not yet be comfortable.. stiches take a while to heal and stop being sore... breastfeeding seems to dry things up(?0 and some contraceptives kill the libido entirely, and who would want to sleep with someone who doesn't love them?

pickgo · 09/06/2011 01:40

Night Perhaps my post wasn't very clear - in that the OP (and us at her invitation) are trying to work out how the OP's DP might be feeling - whereas having dropped the bombshell of 'I'm not in love with you', you'd hope that he might elaborate and suggest some possible course of action to follow.

The OP said she thought he's just going through the motions in counselling and they haven't really discussed because he won't.

The OP has been 'positioned' not to upset him further because she wants to continue the relationship while he has said his commitment is in doubt.

I don't think anyone's opinions are wrong - they are their opinions... I might hold contrary ones that are just as legitimate though.

I really don't think this a gender issue particularly - it's just someone being very selfish.

But it is exacerbated because it is as a woman that OP is vulnerable recovering from childbirth and practically dependent on her partner at the moment.
She has trusted her partner by joining her life to his and having DCs.
Now the other partner has thrown it all into doubt but has not decided on what they want.

It would be more honourable to shut up until you are sure of what you want to do, then talk, then do, IMO. The concern is that by not doing so the relationship almost inevitably becomes unequal.

What is he getting out of perpetuating this situation?

jbcbj · 09/06/2011 09:31

thank you all so much for your comments - very helpful indeed. I will try to respond to as many as I can (am on a time pressure...)

anyfucker - no, he doesn't make me feel inarticulate, I do that all on my own! He just doesn't like arguments (childhood full of them, the irony being that his - arguing - parents are still together...) and often when I try to talk about things he just clams up. Totally. Doesn't say a word - very difficult to conduct a one-way discussion. It is one of the things that we have talked about since his bombshell and he is trying. I find it hard to pick the right time to bring something up and I think I am probably a bit passive-aggressive; one of my least attractive character traits. I am much better at writing things down, and have started a letter - discussing it on here really helps too.

ziptoes - thank you for the book recommendation, I'll have a look.

mrswhiskerson - lovely post, thank you. He does tell me a lot that he finds me attractive (apparently I have a great bottom, if that's not TMI...Blush) and last night he said I was beautiful. And there was no sexual pressure behind it.

Talking of sexual pressure, as this (naturally) has come up a lot. I never withdrew completely - we had loads of kisses and cuddles, and often more (yes, I will admit that full sex was not as common as it was, but there were reasons for that). Not as much as he would have liked, but he has a very high libido, and there was certainly never nothing. I think a lot of the issue was the expectation that kisses/cuddles may lead somewhere else, so when I (fairly often) said that I didn't want that he felt that I was rejecting him. Since this all came out, I have made that point and the pressure has certainly eased making being physical much easier - so that has picked up a bit, oddly enough. There is still an aspect of emotional barriers if we go too far though, on both sides.

morebeta - no flaming from me, thank you for your input. It has not been three solid years with no physical side (and see above, it was low rather than nil), as once bf reduced quite a lot with dd my hormones realigned and I felt sexy again - but it was only 2 months before we conceived ds and then morning sickness struck.... tricky to feel sexy if you want to vomit a lot of the time! Wink. I'm really not pushing him away, the difficulty is that he felt that I was - he admits that that was a misunderstanding.... But yes, I do see how the physical side of things could easily contribute, and take some responsibility for that. The problem is, what can we do about it? I have been trying (and succeeding) to be more physically intimate - but don't think he would want me to have sex with him if I was not happy with it. From a man's pov, if you are doing almost everything but, and getting physical release, is this an acceptable holding pattern for a while? I also don't feel that our children are totally taking over - I have tried to balance everyone (not very well, clearly....Sad) but it is natural that the balance shifts, trying to find a new dynamic that suits everyone is the key. Still working on that one....

ITNG - sorry, but you are wrong in that final sentence. I really do want genuine male opinions, and will even allow that a lot of what you have said may be right Wink. I really appreciate you gents who have taken the time to reply, I just want to understand what is going on in his head, and you are helping with that. Thank you.

pickgo - you speak a lot of sense. I think that he told me out of a sense of wanting to be honest, and hopefully to sort things out, although that is one bit that I am not sure about because I think that he does not believe that they can be sorted out. I am trying to understand why he feels like this in the first place, why he didn't tell me earlier, why he is feeling so pessimistic about sorting things out and what we can do about it.

Sorry this is a bit long, and thank you once again for all comments.

OP posts:
madonnawhore · 09/06/2011 09:36

If someone told me they didn't love me any more, I wouldn't feel inclined to have sex with them.

If OP's H genuinely wants to make the relationship better, he shot himself in the foot there.

LindenAvery · 09/06/2011 10:32

MoreBeta I do think there may be something in what you say although it could just as easily be down to what other people have posted. It does come across as if he may be suffering from depression due to it happening after the birth of a second child - typically the life-changing realisation of fatherhood and what the future holds occurs after this time.

However - 'Bottom line is your DH is telling you the truth. I agree with him. You have let the fact you have had children totally take over your life to the detriment of your physical and emotional relationship with your husband and he is begging you to let some balance back in your marriage.' - you are making it sound as if it is the OPs sole fault for creating this problem as well as being the one who needs to rectify it - which is hardly fair. Surely responsibility lies with both to maintain the relationship? Plus the way the DH has gone about expressing it is totally wrong. And he doesn't come across as being mature enough to resolve the issues he has - no he is merely dumping it all on a knackered wife TO THE DETRIMENT OF HER PHYICAL AND EMOTIONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HER HUSBAND!

MIFLAW · 09/06/2011 10:53

To reiterate my opinion as a man (and I would be interested in what other men say to this too) - from what I've seen and experienced, a lot of what he is doing and apparently feeling is normal, especially in us mortal men who allow ourselves the luxury of being a bit petulant when a new baby is born.

What I still refuse to accept as normal is him TELLING the OP that he "may not love her" before he is ready to act on that. The last time I was stupid enough to do that I wasn't even 18 or sexually active. It is perhaps the act of an idiot; or perhaps the act of someone who wants to manipulate the situation and that men who talk about "the love thing" in this way often really mean "the lust thing" (though I draw the line at trying to guess to what end he is trying to manipulate things.)

Once more - emotions = normal. Behaviour based on those emotions = not normal.

madonnawhore · 09/06/2011 10:58

Yes MIFLAW, if OP's H was unhappy in the relationship, the way to make it better was not to tell her he doesn't love her.

By saying that, he's really fucked everything. How is OP supposed to recover from that? How is she supposed to respond? 'Make' him love her? Have more sex with a man who says he doesn't know if he loves her?

It's so cruel and wrong. And, I repeat, setting OP up to fail.

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 09/06/2011 11:35

THe key thing is: how much effort has he been putting into making family life better? Going to Relate and sitting there saying nothing more than 'well I'm here aren't I' isn't good enough. And I know it almost always comes down to this but how much of the domestic workload is he sharing? That's the thing that is most likely to make a women feel she has more time for the 'couple' side of the marriage - not spending all her time doing chores while the man sits on his arse in the evenings on the grounds that he has been At Work.

tryingtoleave · 09/06/2011 11:52

I wouldn't jump straight to affair. Dh and I had a really tough time after dc2 was born. The workload and exhaustion were a huge shock and I think dh was depressed. I think we had sex two or three times in the year following dd's birth. It did get better, but it took quite a while - at least a year to improve a bit. ( we are 2.5 years in now and much happier - although still tired). I would suggest to your dh that the two of you try to soldier on for a year and not make any irrevocable decisions until then. Things might just get better on their own.

niceguy2 · 09/06/2011 11:58

Another guy here. The way I see it is that this is one of those situations where the truth is probably somewhere inbetween.

Kid's do completely change your relationship. Many nowadays don't survive that change.

I don't think the marriage is worth giving up on yet but as others have said, it is down to both of you to put the effort in. Time will tell if he is setting you up for a fail. It could also be true that anything you do now is too little too late. Who should have done what earlier/better/differently would be all rather academic.

The only thing you can do is put maximum effort into putting the relationship right, with the expectation and proviso that he does the same too. At least if it goes pearshaped still, you can hand on your heart say you put in 110% effort.

So from your point of view, how about getting friends/relatives to babysit more? Even having them overnight so you can go out on date night? Have some fun with other adult company. Try specifically not to talk about the kids for one night?

The other thing of course which will help is to move the kids out of your bedroom. There's no reason for them to be there. Nothing is more libido crushing than having a baby in the room. I'll probably get flamed for that one from the MN mafia for putting the man's desire for sex above having the child sleep in the same room blah blah but to me, it seems a small price to pay to get space back in the bed. A better nights sleep. And of course hopefully a better relationship with your husband!

I'm mindful of the old adage that men need to have sex to feel loved whilst women need to feel loved to have sex. More effort sexually on your part and less pressure from him I think will go a long way.

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