to find some modern aspects of feminism patronising to women?

[glitterkitten]

I say "modern aspects" as i am more than aware that historical feminist activism has led to my being able to work in a professional job, has given me choices, has improved the general quality of life for women since etc etc.

An example of what i find patronising to the extreme is the recent protest by feminist groups at the opening of the Playboy Club in London.

wild haired, wild eyed women waved placards and protesting about how playboy exploit women, how evil men were manipulating women and that essentially, women who worked within such industries needed to be saved.

how can these women think that they need to save other women, who are simply exercising their right to make independent choice regarding how they make a living?

these women will deny / ignore the fact that some women working in such an industry (in all its guises) CHOOSE to earn a living that way. they earn a good wage, shock horror, they may even ENJOY it!

i find it so patronising. Intensely.

as i said above, i work in a professional career. i have no issues with strip clubs, lap dancing bars, playboy etc. i have accompanied my husband to such clubs on occasion. those women if anything, are taking advantage of the men who sit and dribble at them. the women have the last laugh with the money they make which is undoubtedly higher than the national minimum wage. would a feminist seek to tell me i am wrong??

maypole - would you be happy for your daughters to do it too?
what advice would you give them about dealing with the sexual harassment and groping?

maypole... I think the bunnies of the 50s/60s were quite glamourous, I don't think they are so much now as the mystique seems to have gone, maybe because of the media. Sex is everywhere now and it's really quite sordid and tasteless in my view.

Lyingwitchinthewardrobe,

You are quite right in that misuse of the word "exploitation"
It may be that some (of both genders) can distance themselves emotionally and psychologically from sex making it another asset to sell, like labour.

No, maypole, they don't. They are pointing out that bunny clubs exploit women which is true. That they entrench men's views that women are all about tits and arse and not much else. Also true. That they undermine women's efforts to be taken seriously as equal citizens in society. Also true.

I'm sorry you can't see that. And that you think that being a topless dancer and being groped and leered at by a bunch of sweaty old men is something to aspire to :(

sybilbeddows i have a daughter and if she was over 18 then good luck to her like i said i think they look very sexy .

and the advice i would give her if you want to work in a place like that you may get groped if you don't want to get groped then dont work their simple.

but like i said just because i don't like something that is legal should i stop others from doing it i wonder if those fems would of paid those girls rents or fed them if they had manged to closed the club.

their are a lot of things i don't like that are not illegal but if others want to do them good luck.

they should not speak for all woman because not all woman fell the same, i don't agree with have the shit these people say and it makes me made they think they can speak for all woman kind

that's all they should make it clear not all woman agree with them and they are spouting their own view

'It may be that some (of both genders) can distance themselves emotionally and psychologically from sex '

Ah yes, the good old 'they're not like us' line, as used to justify exploitation since time immemorial.
Unfortunately with other forms of exploitation it always seems to turn out that actually they were like us and they were hating what was being done to them just as much as we would....

You can't have it both ways; with the exception of women who cannot work here legally, women make their choices to work in the sex industry. They may 'hate it', may 'hate' flipping burgers too, but they make the choice of whether they are 'exploited' by men for selling themselves.

Please stop treating all women as if they're nitwits. Some do make a choice to work in the sex industry and to pretend otherwise is really quite patronising.

that was to 'Sybil' by the way.

LWW - some women do choose to work in the sex industry, certainly. Whether they are doing that as a free choice (so freedom to choose a different way of life) is unclear. Many women who work in the sex industry have drug and alcohol problems. While they might be choosing to work in the industry, I wouldn't call that free.

I saw this interview with Hugh Heffner and his wife at the weekend, then a "typical" feminist came on to tell us how evil he was, how these "poor" bunnies didn't know any better etc. When I say typical, I mean she looked like a man, she dressed like a man and she seemed to assume that all women who didn't agree with her were thick. She shrieked at the interviewer. She made very little sense to me.

I wouldn't want my daughter to become a Playboy Bunny or a Porn Star, but I wouldn't want to her to become some irrational, do-gooding, shrieking harpy either. And why the dressing like a man? If men are so awful, why dress like one?

I really don't want women like I've just described defending my morals, I can do that myself. So YANBU OP, as far as I'm concerned I agree with you on this one.

StewierGriffinsMom... I do understand what you're saying but I can't agree with it because by the definition, women who can work in the UK are not obliged to enter the sex industry, there are other industries, even for few or no qualifications.

I think as women who have choices and freedom in this country, we have to stop and think about whether continually blaming men for their shortcomings is truly the problem. If women didn't choose to exploit mens' desire for participating in the sex industry, it couldn't exist, could it?

What is your definition of vulnerable women and children? We don't have workhouses anymore, we have an adequate state-supported system that taxpayers fund. It's not a life of wealth but I really don't understand the point that women are forced into the sex industry (excepting overseas trafficked women). How come men aren't forced into it?

Thanks for taking the time to reply with your post btw, really interesting.

OP, you are assuming that the groups such as the ones protesting at the strip club, are representative of modern feminism at all. I don't think they are.

'You can't have it both ways; with the exception of women who cannot work here legally, women make their choices to work in the sex industry'

WHAT? Are you seriously saying no British women are forced into it?

That's terribly ignorant.

And yes, some women choose to work in the sex industry. Where have I said no women do?
Of those women, a large proportion have drugs problems. Another large proportion are victims of abuse. There will also be some (Belle de Jour springs to mind) who are not abuse victims but have emotional problems they are working through (after leaving prostitution she talked about how her dad used to introduce her to the prostitutes he was having sex with when she was growing up and the effect that had one her.) There may well be a few who come into none of these categories and are doing it because they have been told by a mate it is good money. Good luck to them, and I hope they get out of it without suffering any of the assaults or emotional problems or addictions that many women working in these industries face.

The point I made earlier in the thread and which bears repeating is that when you go to one of these places you don't know the histories of the women involved, you can't say 'I'd like a dance from a happy woman who is not being forced to hand over her earnings to an abusive boyfriend please'. So you run the risk of participating in the abuse. And I don't know how anyone can be morally ok with that risk.

can beat off!!

Ta xxxxx

at TheFlyingOnion

It's interesting that the increase in anti-feminist sentiment on the boards exactly coincides with the increase in illiteracy and stupidity.

Funny that.

just how does an illiterate person post on mumsnet? unless illiterate means someone who has a different opinion from you?

and some of the posters on this thread have a manner which is likely to alienate people from their beliefs and ideals, as they dont accept questionin, and call people thick if they dont understand their pov

Dont click on it then Onion. Sortex

TimeWasting - I've been on MN for years and am certainly not illiterate nor anti-feminist, just "anti" the feminists who seem to do the cause no favours in the eyes of the wider world by their extreme views and apparent desire to tell the rest of womankind what to think.

Sybil and StewieGriffinsMom... I suppose that is what I'm saying. Women in the UK are more fortunate in terms of having Government 'back-up' that women from other countries don't have available to them.

I understand that women can suffer abuse and feel very low self-esteem, drugs are also a factor. How does all that equate to the sex trade though, why would a woman decide on that as a way to earn a living rather than choosing another option? I'm failing to see the connection. How do teens end up in the industry to start with? As children, they're on the system somewhere, aren't they?

I think there's a disparity in sex trade publicising... at the promoted end of the business, it's a lifestyle choice, women say they're exploiting men and everybody's happy... at the other end, it's undercover, covert and dangerous. Is it really the case that a wrong decision or two can take away your choices to such a degree that this is the only opion available?

I think that as long as the 'sanitised' version of the sex trade is plied, there will continue to be women who make the choice to enter it. If the seedier, exploitative side were more publicised, perhaps it would raise awareness that whilst the sex trade has two sides of the coin, both are equally sleazy and both support an industry that trafficks and forces women to work in it.

I don't know that anything could be done to put a stop to the industry as prostitution is all but legalised here. I really don't know what the answer is, I would hate my daughter to work in this industry, it's not sexy or glamourous or any of the glittery things that some women seem to think it is. :(