to be sick of hearing about soldiers being killed in afghanistan

[southeastastra]

and think we should pull out

And is "raghead" just forces humour too?

Yes, the forces use black humour - keeps them sane.

No, seeker it didn't. I'll say once more - the tipping point was 9/11.

China hadn't provided a haven for terrorist training camps. The Chinese weren't involved in 9/11.

In addition, the Chinese didn't supply the world with 75% of its illegal narcotics.

And the Chinese didn't treat the population anywhere near as badly as the Taliban.

"Yes, the forces use black humour - keeps them sane."

Also keeps the enemy nice and depersonalized.

People join the military (not just the army) for 101 reasons. There are so many different trades across all 3 services it is not as simple as "soldier" "pilot" or "sailor".

Agree with this statement I know Doctors/Mechanics/Office Managers/Nurses/Drivers who all work for the army. Then of course you have the other forces. They all have several reasons why they joined up - some before 9/11 some after. All are valid. They are men/women, DW's/DH's, expectant parents/parents/grandparents. They are just like everybody that you walk past in the high street - you wouldn't know unless they were in uniform. They could have the same job in the civillian world. However they get long leave periods, extra training, opportunities that you might not in civillian life - sports/travel/a chance to branch out - and job security. Yes they risk their life and as threads like these show people think that they are dead beats with no other life/job chances, are thick, think that they have joined up to kill and aren't proud of our forces personell.

I am proud to be part of a country where we don't have the taliban governing us or be worried that women will be kidnapped/killed, that our children aren't given a gun at the age of 6 to fight etc - instead we help these countries we teach their men how to govern their country, we teach their soldiers, we treat civillians in their hospitals not because we have blown them up but because we have skills we can teach we can bring over supplies we help build infrastructure, we help get rid of unexploded land mines, we hopefully make life easier so that we can hand back their country to them and they can cope.

I speak to the soldiers that go out there/who've been out there and they're scared - but it's their job, they want to do the above and then get out of Afghan as soon as possible. I speak to the parents who treat young children mutilated not by British soldiers but by the taliban/by suicide bombers/by people they know/by other Aghani nationals. and they're appalled but if we're not out there nobody will do a thing.

And to raise a point - you only hear about the death of soldiers not those harmed/injured/sent home due to horrific injuries. My friends husband was sent home with terrible injuries he is/was a para - he'd wanted to do it all his life - not to fight just because it sounded a great/interesting job - he probably won't get to be on the front line again but he doesn't blame anyone and is keen to get back to work!

I heard Tim Westwood talking about being in Afghanistan and how much he admires the troops there. There's a Radio 1 takeover today from 4 pm, requests etc, sounds good, I love Westwood.

seeker of course it depersonalises the enemy. That is what needs to be done. It is not nice and it is not pretty but if you want to be effective at your job and serve in the forces you have to distance yourself from the enemy. Do you honestly think enemy troops think of us as bloody nice chaps and call us pleasant names? Combat is ugly and you do what it takes to come out the other side mentally and physically intact. My brother was a para and some of his humour and the terms he uses make me cringe but these people were trying to kill him on a regular basis whilst performing atrocities on their own people. When it comes to being pc you will have a hard time converting the troops.

Afghanistan is known to have untapped oil reserves, and also the Americans wanted/needed to construct a trans-Afghanistan pipeline.but in the past the political situation has made it impossible to do either of these things.
make no mistake that is the reason why America, with us sitting on her coat tails went to war on Afghanistan.
Al Qaeda training camps can be moved here or there almost on a whim, and the idea that it's anything to do with human rights is laughable.Since when have America cared about human rights in other countries which have no strategic importance wrt oil?
Above all this thread saddens me that apart from myself not one person has shown the least remorse for the desperately poor Afghani civilians being killed or injured in this conflict.But hey ho if they're not British they don't count!!

75% of the dead Afghanis were killed by the Taliban, and documented massacres were happening before the western-led invasion. Are you saying they should be left to their fate, like those in Rwanda or Bosnia?

Also, do you think an invasion in October 2001 was precipitated by anything other than the events of 11th September 2001? Especially given the assassination on 9th September?

Above all this thread saddens me that apart from myself not one person has shown the least remorse for the desperately poor Afghani civilians being killed or injured in this conflict

I have mentioned in my response that the soldiers going over there are shocked and appalled at all the pointless deaths - theirs, the Afghan soldiers, the children, the women etc.

If we weren't over there don't think for one second that these attroceites wouldn't be happening and that we wouldn't be hearing about it - Yes it is very sad and very wrong that all these deaths have happened whether they're british/afghan/american/etc but do you think the Afghanistan news at 9 says oh we killed these many baddies today but think of their families etc. Also remember that as Edith said 75% were killed by the Taliban - and also suicide bombers - I bet they don't think of the children etc.

We are in a war that many disagree with, however we're in it, we have to understand that there will be casualties whether we like it or not, that their will be deaths, that we will hear about it on the news, the soldiers don't like it anymore than the pacifists but I bet people would be moaning we weren't helping if we kept tuning in to hear about Afghanistan in the news and all the attroceties, if we weren't out there primarily helping the civilian and protecting them from dictatorship and taliban rule.

i don't think that actions of a terrorist group should be avenged against a country- no.

'75% of the dead Afghanis were killed by the Taliban, and documented massacres were happening before the western-led invasion'
I don't know where you have got this information from as civilian deaths pre 2007 have never been reported.
What we do know is that during 2010 ALONE there were 8000 Afghan civilian casualties compared to 300 odd British forces deaths SINCE THE CONFLICT BEGAN.
I do think the Afghans would have been left to their fate as in Rwanda etc if it weren't for oil related reasons.In fact i though NATO says that we should not get involved in internal affairs of
I am sad that our troops went there at all.it is not a British cause it is a materialistic American one

This thread has a very inflammatory / confrontational title, even if it wasn't meant that way.

You really should have said that you were sick of our forces being killed out there, not that you were sick of hearing about it.

I give a little inward cheer if there ever passes a day when the death of one of ours isn't mentioned on the news.

I'm one of the few on here who knows what it is to have a husband in a war zone, to live with that level of fear and worry day after day until they come home, is something you can't explain to someone who hasn't experienced it.

It will be a good day when they finally pull out of Afghanistan for good, but the Taliban do need to be taken out of existence.

The thread title is not inoffensive just because ot comes from a MNer who isn't new. FFS. A twatty title is a twatty title no matter what the vintage of the poster. OP rightly got a flaming for being so insensitive.

Massacres pre-invasion - UN reports, also Human Rights Watch, eg the Taliban's killing of 4,000 civilians in Mazari-I-Sharif in 1998.

75% figure is from the official UN report from 2009 and refers only to civilian deaths. Agreed, some year's figures are not authoritatively collected.

well said pinot

Actually Pinot I disagree.

The phrase can be used too ways.
I would have read sick of as upset by.
Others would have read bored by.

That would have happened whoever posted as far as I am concerned.

It is easy to try and stick everyone into two camps. I think it helps to try and resist it a bit. I don't want mn to be a club but equally the people who want to shout 'it's just because you are a well known poster' sometimes do it just because it is an easy, lazy fight to have.

I get what you are trying to say SEA and agree with you that we should pull out as I am also sad that so many young people are dying every month due to war. Sick of hearing it = which it wasn't happening in my book.

"TFO how long have you been on MN?"

"SEA you are not wrong in your suggestion that MN is indeed this thick these days. I was a bit at the thread title until I saw it was you, and then totally understood.

I think the problem here is that there are many newbies and they don't 'know' the old un's and so don't know how to take us."

Doesn't strike you as cliquey, Pagwatch? I think the two-camps thing needs to be resisted by people on "both sides", if indeed there are "sides".

Anyway, threadjack over...

oh fgs i was going to ask to get this pulled but it has some interesting posts.

i said sorry ages ago, what more would you like me to do

and your first polite post set the tone onion

why would I be asking for an apology? I'm just answering pinot's and pag's points above (which last time i checked, was within MN rules)

I have also apologised, and explained. I think I even sat on the naughty chair...

Me and theflying onion both apologised but I won't again

Totally with you Grabaspoon. Although it must be desperately sad if someone you know has gone into battle and died, it is eclipsed by the thousands of people who didn't make that choice and have still had their lives wrecked or taken away. A little time spent pondering this would be a good thing for many people on this thread.

TheFlyingonion.

I think that is pretty much what I said isn't it?

That some try to emphasize a divide and then tit for tat ...'you are new, are you a troll?'....'well you are only getting support from your clique' ...blah blah

And that the temptation should be resisted?

I am not going to cut and paste (as that would seem to be doing the very thing I am talking about) but my impression was that half the replies were 'fuck off you troll/wanker' and the other half were the ones you helpfully cut and pasted.

Neither are especially helpful.

Or did you want me to pick a side?

My cousin got back from tour a month or so ago and I had an interesting conversation with him about the rights and wrongs of us being out there.

He ended up saying,
"to be honest whether we should have been there or not in the first place is pretty much irrelevant now. If you could actually see the huge mess we've helped create out there you couldn't say we should now just walk out and leave them to it. We've got to clear up what we did."

He's a doctor and, although he won't go into much detail, I think he's been pretty traumatised and disillusioned.