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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

TO SAY Camerons Policies are in danger of getting all disabled people labelled as "Scroungers"

1000 replies

ScousyFogarty · 29/05/2011 12:43

That is a wicked thing do do and David Cameron beeds to apologise or more likely get one of his flunkies to say SORRY

OP posts:
smileANDwave2000 · 31/05/2011 21:31

yep we may as well have not had WW2 ffs... kind of obvious what cameron thinks of servicemen they way he treats my DH and other servicemen still in ie equipment , housing pay itself aftercare when leaving (no aftercare basically) when you remember a few months before he visited the ark royal told the crew how fab they were then scraped the ship a few weeks later and is presently working his way through the services getting rid of anyone he can hmmm he is such a lovely bloke

thefirstMrsDeVere · 31/05/2011 21:51

For those who wondered what we all did before we were given all this free stuff.

Not for those of us with children with disabilities. Dont watch it because it will upset you. I used to work here not long after this was made.

ThisIsANiceCage · 31/05/2011 22:17

Oh god, MrsDV, was it still like that when you were there?

lesley33 · 31/05/2011 22:19

I know the Government should be making sure you get the support you need. But I wonder if there are other people on mums net who could help? Certainly if anyone lived near me I 'd be happy to come round regularly and do your washing, cleaning or whatever you want.

Capiche · 31/05/2011 22:20

mrsdevere oh my word.....

thefirstMrsDeVere · 31/05/2011 22:28

Yes it was.

They were all like that. They started to shut them down soon after. That hospital was on acres of prime real estate. It was all care in the community. A fine idea but about as realistic as the Big Society.

There were people in that place who did their very very best to give a life to the residents. Nurses would buy clothes out of their own money.

There were attempts at training and moving forwards but its impossible in that sort of system. The place was like a small town. They didnt even have their own clothes.

Its very strange to see it all again. So sad.

There is a whole series of the videos on youtube. They show the 'babies'. The name given to adults with severe disabilities. We know that some of those 'babies' would have had 'normal' intelligence. We know that now but they wouldnt have then. It was assumed that they all had PLD.

Not that having severe learning disabilities would have excused the treatment anyway.

I learnt a lot working there. I am glad I did. It gives me a historical perspective that not everyone has.

devientenigma · 31/05/2011 22:38

Oh MrsDV I am now tempted but scared.

lesley33 · 31/05/2011 22:42

When I was 16 a friend who had left school went to work in one of these places with children. She was really looking forward to it as before then we had both volunteered with Barnardo's helping out at an afterschool club for disabled children.

I remember her shock at the conditions there and how the children got virtually no attention. We had been shown how to play and stimulate children with severe disabilities and from what she said it sounded as if we had more training as teenage volunteers than a lot of the paid carers in the hospital. Totally horrific.

I remember seeing a documentary exposing how inadequate the care in the community was. It talked to people who only a year before had been in institutional care. It really struck me at the time that although their needs were not being met, they were ademant that they didn't want to go back to live in the hospital.

thefirstMrsDeVere · 31/05/2011 22:42

Its very sad but its the way it was. Its hard to watch. It is part of our history though we need to be mindful of what life was like before we had all this 'free stuff'.

Well, I say 'we'. I mean 'them'. Them who think DLA is a luxury we can do without.

There is no intentional cruelty on the videos. Unlike the panorama programme tonight.

devientenigma · 31/05/2011 22:43

You know lesley I was taking my young dd to school one morning in a heavy snow storm as many parents do. My neighbour was also taking her grandaughter. The grandaughter asked could she take my daughter. The reply was there isn't enough room?? However the normal childs buggy I had at the time had a small window in the plastic cover in the front. By the time I got to school my disabled son was slumped in the window hanging out his hair was soaking and he was blue and breathless. We were rushed to hospital, where he stayed for a while due to pneumonia. He was about 2yo. If only my daughter got a lift, he could of been back in the warmth where he should of been.

Glitterknickaz · 31/05/2011 23:20

The price of the abuse? Three and a half thousand pounds per week per person. Thousands more per week than we get to care for our three, and we're expected to survive without even that?

Capiche · 31/05/2011 23:25

what is criminal is the private companies raking it in on the back of 'care' like this

Glitterknickaz · 31/05/2011 23:33

Thing is general care provision averages at least a thousand pounds a week. Financially assisting carers to keep people with disabilities in their homes makes more economic sense, so why remove that help?

smileANDwave2000 · 31/05/2011 23:41

Aso nijinsky and the other prev poster (sorry ive a terrible memory) and a few others never answered when they insulted all disabled people as spongers and liars and included in that my autistic ds and my disabled ex servicman dh and anyone else out there but especially the ones with invisible disabilities that are not apparent unless you hang a sign on our necks explaining , she never did answer when i explained yes i am angry and insulted (she called us /me selfish) how and what when ive no respite no money and you plan well the government plan on taking away my dh dla and our car do you expect me to live were on the breadline with it and i may have to consider out of desperation to hand my son over to ss institutionalise him she has never had the guts or grace to reply except to say im selfish and all me me me.....wrong im for disabled people beacuse there vunerable im for the elderly , the sick , ect ect

nijinsky · 01/06/2011 01:06

Yet again smileandwave puts offensive words that I have not said in my mouth. I sympathise with your situation and admire you in dealing with it. But I suppose in a way you are correct in calling yourself a liar, as I have certainly not "insulted all disabled people as spongers and liars". It is really immoral to attribute offensive comments to people who have not made them, as it is to deliberately twist words and meanings with an intention which is pure spite.

Just because you are disabled does not mean you are a nice person.

I don't suppose anyone saw the Scottish tv programme, "The Scheme" last night? (its about a rough housing estate in Kilmarnock). One of the most popular characters is a drug addict who had just got out of jail. Now off drugs, he went into the Job Centre and expressed his wish to look for a job. They advised him that no-one would employ him and that he would be going back onto disability benefits.

This sort of thing has to change. And SmileAndWave you can get angry and insult people as much as you like, but all systems get modernised, and if your situation is as you describe it, you will certainly qualify under the new proposals.

nijinsky · 01/06/2011 01:12

*Glitterknickaz I have reported personal attacks against me, and MNHQ are monitoring one user in particular.

I suggest anyone else who feels the same, that ideological opinion has spilled over into unnecssary personal attacks, does the same.*

Ironic that in a thread where Hitler was mentioned, you want to stifle free speech. Which is only about current government reforms. How do you cope with reading a newspaper?

nijinsky · 01/06/2011 01:19

With the advent of new posters on the scene, the disability thread seems to be getting quite competitive...

Glitterknickaz · 01/06/2011 08:26

There is freedom of speech and then there is downright offensive posting. Something you attribute to those of us that you appear to believe to justify our very existence.

I have actually extrapolated why some feel that some posters have what are very clost to Third Reich policies, without getting personal.

So, it's ok for you to be offended by someone justifying their survival, but not for us to be offended by your demeanour?

Insane.

acumenin · 01/06/2011 08:35

What did carers do before CA? Where have all these disabled people come from? Well, of course the first answer is that people died. They just died! That's what happened. Or they were institutionalised and then they died.

But there are specific and discoverable reasons for the fact that there are more disabled people now, and more severely disabled people. My DP has cervical spina bifida, which is uncommon now, and was uncommon pre-1970 because neurological surgery was not advanced enough for many serious cases to survive birth. (The rate of spina bifida in the UK has fallen from 3.5 per 1000 in 1970 to 0.15 per 1000 in 1998, partly due to folate intake and partly due to screening) There's a population bulge of people in their thirties with spina bifida, born between about 1970 and 1979. No one planned for them to exist and no one knows how long they will live because there's no precedent.

Prevalence of major birth defects overall has remained stable since 1978 (US figure sorry), but outcomes are vastly improved. In 1959 the median age of survival for a person with Cystic Fibrosis was six months, in 2009 it was thirty seven. CFers are another kind of pop. bulge.

It's not true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Many people today survive cancer, and that's extraordinary and wonderful, but many people are disabled by the experience, losing mobility, major organ function, and experiencing permanent changes in the endocrine system, to name a few. The trauma of sustained illness and operations can also be mentally debilitating. If 98% of men develop PTSD after 35 days combat, what does fifty operations, some while awake, do to a person? Well, we actually have the answer: it often gives them PTSD. We know lots about why people are disabled today because we have the benefit of a national health service which has good population data.

And back to carers. The Carers Allowance was lobbied for and won by carers, through an organisation called The National Council for the Single Woman and Her Dependents. The conditions that carers lived, and died, in before this organisation are a matter of public record. The Rev. Mary Webster and the LibDem MP Baroness Seear led this struggle (along with Tories, actually! Tories used to support carers and soldiers - and this is a cross-party campaign against "scroungers"), which makes it particularly galling that the Liberals are now participating in this. I can't afford access but if you search the Times Archive for "Reverend Mary Webster" between 01 Jan 1963 and 31 Dec 1965, you will find her initial letter describing what people did before CA.

Bear in mind CA is means-tested, taxable, and only paid to people doing 35 hours a week or more unpaid care work. It is reasonable and true to say they are saving the state money because that level of care need does not go away if the benefit does. It will have to be met by care workers, who must be paid at minimum £5.93/h (my CA works out to £0.34/h, and my DP must have two care workers to turn him, while I do it alone).

Combine the disabled population with the aging population and there is simply not enough institutional care to accommodate them all (leaving aside the political arguments about freedom and social participation etc), whatever we decide about carers and their moral turpitude. Care homes are full. Long stay hospitals are rare. The institutions for the mad have been closed, and that's probably a good thing, but the reality is that "care in the community" means "care BY the community", and everyone has needs food, shelter, heat...

I absolutely agree that the system needs reforming. It's a terrible system. Because of the interaction of benefits, means-testing support, and care charging, I cannot work and care for my DP. I actually have the capacity to work from home, though I know not all 24/7 carers do, and I would like to.

But having extensively reviewed the PIP proposals, read the ESA law, read testimonies from people who have experienced the system, I have come to the conclusion that these reforms are regressive, punitive, ideologically driven and ultimately harmful. Have you done these things, nijinksy? If so, please do so. I've yet to find someone who actually has gone and got themselves info-ed up who thinks they're a social good and I would like to talk to one. Even the government ministers implementing the proposals frequently make fundamental factual errors when discussing them.

It's well worth us having a good conversation about benefit reform - I have some ideas and I'd like to hear other peoples. But it's very boring to have to go on and on saying, yes, there are more disabled people than there used to be, no, DLA is not an out-of-work benefit, yes, you should report someone if you know they are committing a crime, yes I have compassion for old people, etc etc. It's just very boring! These arguments are facile. This is a very serious, life threatening (not lifeSTYLE threatening) reality for people that you are talking to right now. It's not a theoretical debate you can win by being unpleasant enough. Even if you change your mind, tbh, we don't win, because it is all still happening to us. This is hard truth of disability: you can't control it. There are no winners here.

Glitterknickaz · 01/06/2011 08:54

acumenin, beautiful, eloquent post.... thank you

lesley33 · 01/06/2011 09:04

Acumenim - How do you think benefits should be reformed then?

Glitterknickaz · 01/06/2011 09:23

Can we look at this from a slightly different tack?
First thing that needs to be recognised is that disability will still exist no matter what cuts are made. It won't go away.

Ok. So currently we have a system where carers are paid a pittance to care for people with disabilities in their home. It may not be much but it is some money coming in to assist with their lives.

People may believe it is an unacceptable expenditure in straitened times. However, bearing in mind as seen on Panorama last night each institutional care place is so expensive is it not cheaper to stick with the current system? I've already stated, as researched by Leeds University, carers save this country £119 billion. Or would you rather that was spent instead of unpaid carers taking up the slack?

The government is paying less with the current system. I don't actually object to review of claimants, simply the method of reviewing. I don't be believe it should be done by medically unqualified people working for a private company employed by the government with an agenda to cut by 20% regardless of need. It should also not come down to a 30 minute interview. Review by a specialist in the field taking into account medical records of the claimant by their own doctors, consultants and other health care professionals would surely be the fairest option?

Glitterknickaz · 01/06/2011 09:23

If that system was implemented I would genuinely have nothing to fear. I'm not a fraud.

lesley33 · 01/06/2011 09:29

Glitter I asked the question because Acumenin said "It's well worth us having a good conversation about benefit reform - I have some ideas and I'd like to hear other peoples."

ScousyFogarty · 01/06/2011 09:51

TODAYS NEWS Many charities complaining today about pressure from Camerons Disability harshness on claimants. Suicide threats etc

Covered by broadsheet papers and BBC Radio 4 national morning news.

Govt say "Enqiry result of stystem due later in year." These enquiries often say what government want them to say.

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