Measles Outbreak?

[MoaningLisa]

I am sure you have all heard on the news that there has been an outbreak of measles.

Papers, Schools, Hv, Drs are saying if you or your child haven't had the vaccine(s) now would be a good time to get it done.

I cant help but think though that the parents who haven't and wont get their child vaccinated are putting their children at risk.

Aibu to think that its just bloody selfish and very daring to play with their own childs life?

No, GBB. I clearly don't have your skills. I haven't got access to all the papers the way you have either so can't actually properly review the research. (If you could send me the full paper, I'll give it a go though, just for the fun)

The point is, which you're not getting, is that I don't have 'a side'. I'd expect you to approach ALL research in the same way, whether it agrees with your beliefs or not.

But you clearly see it as a fight to be won where you pick holes in your 'opponents' and gloss up the holes in yours. It's not. You should be applying your same skills to the research which agrees with you. Unless, of course, you only want to win a bun fight.

"Nearly all published research has all shown there is no causal relationship between MMR and autism"

Well as we all know anything before 2002, all those epi studies supposed to be the "last word" on MMR-autism, are accepted as useless by the scientific community.

So you're thinking, I assume of other epi studies, since then? Including the notorious Danish study that ignored all children vaccinated and not diagnosed - or rather put them in the "non-autistic" group which I think we all know would given a rather misleading result . So, which others?

"Every other country supportsx the MMR"

Yeah and?

Oh, OK, excuse me. i didn't realise you use research as a tool to prop up your pre-established beliefs. I use research to help me reach my conclusions, not the other way round. Guess that's a pretty fundamental difference between us.

I've linked to a thread containing masses of links. It's you who isn't interested. You have a blind faith - you haven't read, you just believe. At least I've read them - at least I can identify where the flaws are. You just don't bother. Yes, you have a side: you've chosen not to read. That "side" has informed your reading. So you simply haven't the information to analyse because you've chosen not to have it. And you have an opinion without having researched it. So yes, you have a side. It's the side that relies on that tremendously scientific concepts of coincidence and denial.

You just don't even enter the domain of research that doesn't agree with your point of view. You just pretend it isn't there. At least I go in and face it.

And by the way - I did point out why your studies don't show what you say they show. And you haven't responded. So I think we can all agree that if you haven't, you can't, and if you can't, then my points hold.

And if you can, why don't you?

Silver I didn't mean to appropriate your link! But you know, so good it's worth reading twice

actually one of the main reasons i'd like to bow out is that i find your manner very aggressive, childish and unpleasant gbb. And, as i said before, your behaviour on the other thread was absolutely disgraceful, no way I want to get drawn into something like that. i did read it, as it happens. still think you're all bonkers.

I don't understand, which of you thinks MMR is fine and which thinks it's dangerous? I can't keep up!

I'm interested as I just had my DS vaccinated today aged two and a half. I had decided against MMR as I was worried about it all but then a close friends DS (also unvaccinated) contracted measles last week from another unvaccinated child. I had a look at the information on line about measles and decided I'd rather risk the vaccine than risk measles. Seems more people have died from measles than the vaccine. Very simplistic reasoning I know, but faced with the real choice I ran down to the clinic. Thing is that measles is incredibly infectious so chances are DS may get it anyway as vaccine takes 10 days to work.
I feel a bit stupid now for not getting him vaccinated when he should have been.

I am loathe to wade into this thread but here goes: my DS was fully up to date with his vax when he contracted german measles and was hospitalised for five days. I then went onto have his second MMR when it was due.

Yes some vax don't take first time, or even second time. And yes he was very sick with german measles. And yet, I'd still give him those jabs again because frankly, he could have been a heck of a lot sicker. There was another kid in the hospital when we were in with german measles who was in the ITU when we left.

Conspiracy theorists do you genuinely believe the NHS or the government is well organised enough to be pressing forth a flipping expensive vaccine program on a whim?

actually one of the main reasons i'd like to bow out is that i find your manner very aggressive, childish and unpleasant gbb.

actually it's because you have no response and you have to resort to insults

And, as i said before, your behaviour on the other thread was absolutely disgraceful

no it wasn't - how ridiculous - you just don't want people to disagree with you

i did read it, as it happens

but not the links, I assume - what a surprise

I still think you're all bonkers. but you don't have a "side"? sure you don't

you just have to give in to abuse because you are totally stuck for anwers once we get into the research and the nitty gritty - and you don't like that one bit

Framey, don't feel bad. You can only make the decisions that you feel are right at the time. Please be reassured that measles is usually uncomplicated in the majority of cases. So your friend's son will more than likely be perfectly fine, as will yours if he contracts it.

"there's the ramblings of some crank on a website... If you want to believe that moon was made in six days from green cheese then good for you...The difference here is that the bull shit you're spouting is putting peoples lives at risk."

aggressive and childish? why yes, but that doesn't bother you does it

that was windward by the way

whomovedmychocolate, I think you might be posting in the wrong thread. Did you think this was the "MMR doesn't work" thread?

It seems to me that some of the angry ones might think that this is about giving up vaccines entirely - that it is all or nothing.

It need not be that way. You see if you were not all so angry and shouting that research is evil then we could find out if it is okay or not. If it is then we could move on and if it isn't then we could probably fix it.

I bet none of the angry ones thought of that did you. We humans can be pretty clever sometimes. When we're not held back by the ignorant and angry we can do wonders. We can have an MMR that everyone will feel confident in taking.

Surely that is what you want? Why continue acting in a way that will ensure a proportion of people will forego the vaccination when all it would take is to allow a proper open examination of the facts. The amount of effort put into denying the possibility is so much than it would have taken to just bloody well find out.

But we can't do that can we. Because contemplating the possibility plunges some people into an anxiety attack. Maybe we should be studying that condition.

Whomovedmychocolate - are you sure it was german measles ie rubella that he and the other child were sick with? Rubella is usually a very mild illness in children, it is usually only risky to pregnant women. NHS link here Do you mean measles?

frightfully well put onagar

jeez murphy I can't believe you read that other thread and didn't feel shocked at the person posting comedy videos and poems about autistic children to prove their point

Bubbleymuummy have you actually read your link. Click the complications tab, any of those could put a child in ITU

Why continue acting in a way that will ensure a proportion of people will forego the vaccination when all it would take is to allow a proper open examination of the facts.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any proper examination of facts going on here. Just a bunch of angry aggressive rude name-calling posters here who already had their minds made up (yes, MMR is absolutely positively safe) before the discussion and are on a mission to out argue anyone who disagrees. Or even questions.

The truth is, there is no certainty in science, and whether you decide to take up the vaccines or not, there are risks. The pro-vax ones would of course argue that the risks of vax is so minimal that you would be "stupid" not to do it (to paraphrase windward and some others) and if you are "stupid" enough not to do it then you are also being selfish and allowing your children to suffer. They can't see that the mums who are not vaxing their children are actually not being selfish and are not allowing their children to suffer - on the contrary these mums value their children's lives enough to decide that they would rather not have their children risk all the complications that can arise from vax. If you are pro-vax, you believe that the risks of not vaxing far outweighs the potential risks of vaxing. That is until, your child is one of those unlucky ones who do indeed suffer from a debilitating side-effect and ends up with a disability for life. If you are anti-vax, you believe the risks of vaxing far outweighs the risks of not vaxing. But your child could also be unlucky and contract any of the disease mentioned above, and die from the complications.

Pro-vaxers say that the numbers speak for themselves - the risks of death from not vaxing AND contracting the disease is higher than the risks of death from vaxing. So to them its a no-brainer. Vaxing is safer. But this is not a fool-proof way of risk assessment surely. There is absolutely no way of identifying beforehand which children would suffer from complications related to vaxing until they've already been vaxed. This sort of "calculated risk" is not fool proof. And don't say you've made the best decision because you've got numbers to back you up. Numbers do not tell you if your child is going to be the next one to die or suffer from the effects of vaccination. So really no straight answer to the question "Should I vax or should I not vax". Whichever you choose, you take the risk that comes with it. To me its not even a question of believing in conspiracy theories or not. Its just a very personal decision.

Bruffin, did you read how rare they are? Shall we list the potential complications of the common cold?

it doesn't matter how rare they are, they happen! My friends son managed to a get a 1-10000 side effect to a drug he was on. He was the unlucky 1 in 10000, just as wholovedmychocolate son and the other child may be the ones who get the complications. It rather condescending of you to atell a mother that she doesn'#t know what hopitalized her child!

it doesn't matter how rare they are, they happen! My friends son managed to a get a 1-10000 side effect to a drug he was on.

Exactly. Same goes for serious vax complications. It doesn't matter how rare they are. They happen. And they aren't benign, they often affect the brain in horrible ways and lead to death or permanent disability. And mums who choose not to vax their children are acting on that too. If you can empathise with your friend's son's situation with the common cold, why can't you empathise with mothers who choose not to vax because of the possible complications?

My friends son didn't have a common cold, he was on roaccutane for very serious acne!

Nobody is saying that vaccine damage doesn't happen, or that anyone on this thread is not full of sympathy for anyone who suffers whether it is from a vaccine reaction or from the illness themselves. I did know someone who was brain damaged from the single measles vaccine as a baby many years ago.
Nobody knows who is going to react to the vaccine, just as nobody knows who is going to get the complications from the disease. They say prevention is better than a cure so I would rather go with the prevention.

Fair enough bruffin. I got all my children vaxed as well but at that time it was more of a sort of quicksnap decision and can only thank my lucky stars nothing adverse seemed to have happened to them as a result. However if I did a bit more reading up back then I think I might have chosen not to... but I live with my decisions. As we all do.

"It doesn't matter how rare they are, they happen!"

Bruffin, are you sure you're on the pro-vaccination side of the argument?

Surely you would have to say the same about vaccine reactions?

You say prevention is better than cure: the problem is, possible "prevention" involves guaranteed exposure to unknown risk.

Nobody knows who is going to react to the vaccine.

Don't you think it would be great to find out? This is what Andrew Wakefield wanted.

Bruffin, I didn't tell her she didn't know. I asked if she was sure it was rubella rather than measles because, as I said before, complications from rubella in children are very rare and she mentioned that another child was hospitalised with the same thing at the same time.