Measles Outbreak?

[MoaningLisa]

I am sure you have all heard on the news that there has been an outbreak of measles.

Papers, Schools, Hv, Drs are saying if you or your child haven't had the vaccine(s) now would be a good time to get it done.

I cant help but think though that the parents who haven't and wont get their child vaccinated are putting their children at risk.

Aibu to think that its just bloody selfish and very daring to play with their own childs life?

There is NO link between MMR and autism,

I don't think you can categorically say that. There is no such certainty in science. You don't know what's going to turn up with further research.

"There is NO link between MMR and autism."

Well I think you've undermined your argument pretty spectacularly there.

You have no idea if this is true or not. I'm not surprised your blood pressure is high if you get frustrated when people don't believe this kind of "end of!" statement.

Don't you know anything about nutrition and disease? You must know the WHO hands out Vit A to prevent measles morbidity and mortality, for example. Didn't you know that? Don't you know that good nutrition promotes health and helps the body fight disease? Are you joking? Didn't you know that measles, for example, was well on the decline before vaccination? Should I get my high-up pharma exec to fill you in on his belief that clean water would probably clear up 60 pc of global health issues?

Are you going to run away without answering questions although you've had yours answered? Did you just come to spout "there is no link" and then disappear without anything more to say?

I suppose you did. I suppose you are.

'twas ever thus, gooseberry, 'twas ever thus.

and "I've got far more important things to do..."

"that mad baby-eating doctor was struck off anyway, innit?"

heh heh

I think keeping on looking at this thread is going to make me pop my clogs

I think we have all lost the will to live! Certainly to post.
Just leave a clear way for silverfrog and Gooseberry-they can have a jolly time agreeing with each other-and no one to try and burst the bubble.

Sorry, was drinking gin in the garden. I'll say it again, there is no link between the MMR vaccine and autism, and vaccines work. I do know about the work of the WHO and the fact that they actively promote vaccine programmes.

Are you really suggesting that the rich people who died of diphtheria, polio, whooping cough, measles, smallpox in times past were not well nourished? Seriously? Not to mention the great and good wiped out by TB and in the 1918 spanish flu outbreak.

Some of you have a shocking complacency regarding infectious diseases. I do hope that it doesn't take an H5N1 or ebola outbreak (once both diseases have gone human to human in transmission) in order for you to rethink your position.

I'll also say again that you only have the luxury of this complacency due to a working vaccine programme and herd immunity.

I remember your waffle gooseberry from the homeopathy thread. Is there a correlation between anti-vaxxers and homeopathy 'believers'?

it's exhausting isn't it!? As well as a bit ridiculous.

Endless studies show what they don't want to hear so they pick holes in each one (ignoring the fact that they are all independently come to the same conclusion). Then if there's one study that says what they want to hear, they hold it up as a paragon of the truth (ignoring the fact that one study on its own in any case is not evidence of very much).

Love to see if they can apply their sharply honed critical skills to evaluating research which DOES agree with their view point. Such as the study GBB linked to. All very well inviting others, let's see them do it as they are, of course, impartial and just want the truth (since most of us can't actually read the whole paper as it's not open access - I'm assuming they have of course, right?). Is that paper an example of excellent research? And all papers which disagree with them examples of shoddy research? That WOULD be a curious coincidence .

"I'll say it again, there is no link between the MMR vaccine and autism"

And I'll say it again - you have no idea if this is true. Unless you are like, magic or something.

Endless studies? Like, the ones you posted that are so easily picked apart and show absolutely nothing?

Sorry you're so exhausted, but any comment on this?

Alistron do you always resort to abuse ("waffling"?) when you have nothing else to say? Like windward?

the telling thing, Murphy, is that no matter how many links areposted from my side of the debate - you don't read them, you don't ask questions o nthem - you don't even try to pick them apart.

please go ahead and do so.

I owuld like to have a discussion on it.

pick a paper which supports the hypothesis that wakefield put forward so many years ago - and tell me why that paper is:

unscientific
not valid
not worth reading.

because all the links you post are jut too easy to pull apart - they mostly do not say what you claim they say.
and the ones that do - well, as gooseberry has said, they are often not well regarded withn the scientific community, for various reasons.

but no.

all you can do is attack, ignore and call names.

well, carry on - but you are hardly putting up a convincing argument here

There are plenty of studies you could read if you wanted but you don't. I've linked to a thread that links many, many and is so full of info and detail but you just don't want to know.

who are the people here who read the studies posted and examine them in detail?

it isn't the denialists that's for sure

"the luxury of this complacency"

I think I know who I'd call complacent

mostly you, tbh gooseberry

sorry, not up to it atm

but have read lots of them before - if people cared to read the thread you linked to, I probably discussed some of them there!

Yes, I know GBB. Every study that doesn't agree with you is worthless and easily picked apart and, dare I say it, a bit corrupt. The studies may have flaws (as do all studies) but they don't have the same flaws which would all change the results in the same direction so if they all independently came to the same conclusion, then that's very convincing to me. It's called rational thought.

The very few studies which in any way support what you're saying you think are excellent research of course. Would you care to point out the flaws in the study you posted since I guess you can access the whole paper? I'd love to see you apply your fantastic research skills to that paper as well.

I can't really comment since I've only seen the abstract (be great if you could email the whole paper though, happy to pm you my email) although a couple of things pop to mind like the fact that it's at the US STATE level not at the individual where I'd imagine there would be countless confounding factors. The way the results were reported in the abstract was pretty odd as well - what did you think? Guess you thought it was all A-OK since it agrees with you.

at x posts

I can't resist it silver (unlike others who find it all to easy to resist I wonder why)

come and have a go if you think you're hard enough

eh? so not only do I have to pick apart yours, I have to pick apart mine?

you respond for a change - what's inaccurate about the flaws I pointed out in yours???

and go on - pick apart my peer reviewed stuff, and every link on that other thread I linked to

gwan gwan

Alistron, did you look at the links to the HPA website earlier? The ones that showed that the death rates from measles (ie the most serious complication) had greatly reduced from the 1940s when antibiotics became widely available to treat the potentially dangerous secondary infections such as pneumonia (wonder how many times I have had to refer to these figures - i must need to copy and paste them to make sure people actually read them)

Bruffin also kindly highlighted that clean water is the most important thing in reducing the incidence of disease (from the HPA website) The WHO have also highlighted the reduction of complications in developing countries (where many people are malnourished) by administering vitamin A - it halves the risk of complication. These are very real issues that unfortunately still impact on people all over the world - these are things we take for granted. So yes, many people who suffer complications from measles are malnourished and don't have access to clean water, good sanitation and adequate healthcare.

Re TB, you are aware that the tb vaccine is unreliable and ineffective and there is currently research going on to find a replacement aren't you?

Re Spanish flu in 1918 - what is the complication of flu that causes the most deaths? Pneumonia. How do we treat pneumonia these days? With antibiotics. What was not available for widespread use in 1918? Antibiotics. Also, how healthy do you think people who live on limited rations and sleep and eat in rat infested trenches are? I don't think that argument is going anywhere for you!

Re complacency due to herd immunity. I shall once again refer you to the HPA website that I linked to earlier showing that the UK has never had the required 95% MMR vaccine uptake to provide herd immunity to provide immunity to these diseases. In fact, we've been quite far off it for several years now.

Also, just to clarify, I didn't say that smallpox was wiped out by quarantine alone - just that it played an important role so you can't give the vaccine, the early versions of which actually killed more people than they saved btw, all the credit.

Bruffin to address one of earlier points, if the most serious complication of measles ie. Death has reduced do you not think it is also possible that other complications would also have reduced?

I think we can summarise the argument thus:

1. Nearly all published research has shown there has been no or little rise in autism. People who don't believe in vaccines also think this research is flawed and/or corrupt -the only good research is that which agrees with them.

2. Nearly all published research has all shown there is no causal relationship between MMR and autism. People who don't believe in vaccines also think this research is flawed and/or corrupt -the only good research is that which agrees with them.

3. Every country in the world supports the use of the MMR, not just the UK. People who don't believe in vaccines think that the medical/public health authorities of every country in the world are mistaken and/or corrupt and they are the only ones who know the truth.

I guess there' some more to it, around how effective the mmr is, herd immunity and how dangerous measles is but it's late and I have kids to get ready for bed. .

murphy, I htink you are a little confused as to how discussion works.

the link gooseberry posted earlier was my link (just goes to show you don't click on anyhting posted, really, doesn't it?) and no, I don't have access to the full paper - just the abstract.

I posted it as it is interesting, and at some point I will find the full paper.

but really, it is not for gooseberry, or me to pull apart links which we clearly htink either fully or partially support our argument - what a bizarre thought!

but, just ot follow it on - where are your critiques of your own links? I can only asume you have read those (although why i woudl assume that heaven only knows) - so, what are the flaws? what are the weak points? what should they have looked at to make it valid?

gooseberry has lined up her points nicely, but you do not even have a comeback to those - excpet to harp on about the fact that she is trying to enter into discussion

"Nearly all published research has shown there has been no or little rise in autism."

Well no, it doesn't, this isn't true - you haven't addressed the points I made which demonstrate those studies to be meaningless. But then, you wouldn't, would you.