Measles Outbreak?

[MoaningLisa]

I am sure you have all heard on the news that there has been an outbreak of measles.

Papers, Schools, Hv, Drs are saying if you or your child haven't had the vaccine(s) now would be a good time to get it done.

I cant help but think though that the parents who haven't and wont get their child vaccinated are putting their children at risk.

Aibu to think that its just bloody selfish and very daring to play with their own childs life?

The India/Africa thing here is silly. Posters, you may decide not to go or not to take your DCs there. Your DCs may, in the future decide to go themselves. If that happens will you recommend or not the vaccines needed?

I totally get that some children are immuno-supressed/have allergies/ have other conditions where it is advised they do not get vaccinated. It is in their interests in particular that the rest of the population do receive the vaccine (herd immunity).

To others who have not been advised not to vaccinate, why do you not get your children vaccinated?

Dione - I answered that downthread.

Once dd2 can demonstrate Gillick competence, the decision is hers.

I think vaccines get more airtime because they can spin it to give shock headlines.

Silverfrog, I asked if you would recommend or not? Are you saying that you would refuse to say anything?

dione, my dd would know my views by that point - just by the very fact that she was still not vaccinated.

if nothng had changed ofr her, medically, then I would still be of the same opinion. if there is no research that unequivocally says that mitochondrial dysfunction is not implicated in vaccine damage, then my opinion will not change.

but it would not be up to me to stop her (and I would not be able to do so if she could demonstrate Gillick competence). I would hope that once she does reach that stage, she would actually read th research, and research the implicaitons for her, rather than just go by what is standardly recommended - that bit I woudl try to ensure.

but the decision would be down to her.

OK, just wanted to know if you would recommend vaccines (not just MMR) to a DC going abroad. Obviously not.

You say that you would recommend that she read the research and base her decisions upon that, but based on the research the government and health authorities have recommended vaccination. Are you saying that they have not?

I cannot recommend somehtign to my dd that I am fairly sure will harm her.

could you point me in the direction of research that categorically states that there isno greater risk of vaccine damage in a child with mitochondrial dysfunction? I would be very interested to read it.

Silverfrog is your child more at risk than any other from vaccination?

Silverfrog has mentioned the extra risk factors for her children in previous posts.

dione - read up about mitochondrial disorders, then come back.

It is a simple question that requires a yes or no answer. I am perplexed as to why you will not answer.

As I have said in my previous posts that I understand why the parents of high risk children don't vaccinate.

dione, I am not sure what you think I haven't answered. read the thread.

dd1 is vaccine damaged.

dd2 has a probable mitochondrial dysfunction.

what is there in that that you do not understand?

I asked if your child is more at risk from vaccination than any other? Yes or No?

If the answer is "yes" then why would you allow them under Gillick Competency (which allows the child to make a decision based on their understanding of the information readily available, as opposed to trawling through numerous academically published and peer reviewed articles) to make a decision that could do them great damage?

the information dd2 will need is readily available, though

it may not be given to her by the gp, but as I said earlier, unless things change for her medically, then she will now why she is in the position she is in.

she willnot be left to trawl through anything by herself. and I will not leave it to her gp to inform her.

but once she is Gillick competent, there is nothing I can do to stop her having the jabs if that is what she decides. it is not a qustion of what I would "allow" - once Gillick competency can be demonstrated, I am, potentially, no longer part of the equation.

but she will have the information before that point - she is hardly growing up in an isolation bubble.

OK, I get it Silverfrog, you have an opinion, your GP and child may not agree with your opinion. I now understand why you could not answer the "yes or no" question.

I can, and have answered the question several times.

yes, my children have a higher risk of complications from vaccines.

this does not stop gps recommneding the "party line"

when questioned further, they do end up agreeing that vaccination is not a good idea. but often they do not look beyond "unvaccinated" on the notes.

dd2 does not have an opinion as yet - she is 4.

dd1 is unlikely to ever get to Gillick competence levels, so not an issue there.

btw, I do not have an "opinion" - I have 2 children with various disorders. I do not know what you cannot comprehend about this.

I asked you earlier - find me the research that says it is a good idea to vaccinate children with mitochondrial disorders.

So the answer is "yes", right? It was a long slog, but we finally got there.

"LooktoWindward How can you be so sure? Why would a number of parents report major differences in the behaviour of their children within days of the MMR if it hadn't happened?

Your certainty is riding on one hell of a coincidence."

Because they're looking for something to blame and vaccinations are a nice coincidence.

Have been lurking and just wanted to highlight to silverfrog that her dd2 would not be able to get a university/college place to study healthcare subjects, or childcare studies without most of the standard childhood vaccines. Nursing, midwifery and medical schools are very strict about this...

Can appreciate your dilemmas though with your family circumstances.......

Bruffin - why are you taking one line out of context? If you read my previous line then it is obvious what I am saying. Also, you do realise that for every case of measles where there is a complication there are several hundred where the child is perfectly fine?More, if you only consider the risk of serious complications rather than things like diarrhoea and ear infections. (serious in the context of living in the UK - I realise certain things are more dangerous in less developed countries. Although complications in these countries can be halved by administering vitamin A because they are much more likely to occur in malnourished children ( see the WHO recommendations in the treatment of measles) ) Re. Darkened rooms. Measles causes light sensitivity so it is more comfortable for the patient to be in a darkened room. In any case, why are you basing your current perception of measles on a book from the 1930s before antibiotics became widely used? If you look at the HPA figures you can see the difference that they made to the fatality rate from the 1940s - it was much bigger than what the vaccine did when it was introduced in 1968.

Why do people still cling to the whole herd immunity idea when it clearly offers no guarantees? Countries with above 95% vaccination rate (the magic figure that keeps getting spouted) are still having outbreaks.

Looktowindward - so the vaccine compensation scheme pays out on the basis of coincidence then? Yeah, right. Compensation is always handed out willy nilly.

Murphy, for the record, I don't read the daily mail. That link came up when I was searching for something else. It was dated yesterday so I thought it was relevant to the discussion. In any case, Wakefield has nothing to do with my opinion on certain vaccines. Why do people always assume that people don't like the MMR because they're worried about autism? It's really not the case in many instances.

The outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations are very small though - demonstrating that vaccination works.

People who choose not to vaccinate in the UK are only able to do so because the vaccine programme is so effective. I'm sure if people were still contracting diphtheria, smallpox, whooping cough left, right and centre and there were significant numbers of people dying/suffering complications then they'd have a different perspective.

Quite alistron.
They don't appreciate how lucky they are.
If you read old school log books for 19th century you will find that whole schools were closed for weeks when there was an outbreak of a serious infectious disease-DCs died.The school then had to be fumigated before it reopened. I can just imagine the panic if that happened now! It doesn't happen because of the immunisation programme.

I still don't know why people can't answer a simple question of whether they would take an unvaccinated DC to India, without hiding behind the fact they wouldn'tgo or it depends on the reason.
I am not taking mine there- but it is quite simple-I wouldn't take them without vaccination. All it needs is yes or no! I wouldn't go myself without vaccination.

So far it seems that the non vaxxers wouldn't consider going to a country where there wasn't herd immunity. Maybe instead of flatly saying 'well, I wouldn't go...' they should consider why in the developing world children are still dying from childhood diseases. Of course there are issues surrounding sanitation and nutrition but vaccine is the most effective way to prevent transmission of these diseases.

I'd like to ask 'em what they'd do if smallpox came back, or if H5N1 went human - human, ditto the ebola virus. Would they vax or takes their chances?

Sorry but you are wrong about measles. The complication rate for hospitalization ie therefore quite serious complication such as pneumonia is only 1 in a hundred.That is a current western world figure. Mild complications can be as low as 1 in 5. Even The complication rates are far higher than the vaccine to prevent it.
You were doing your silly rose coloured glasses thing where everyone caught measles in the past and survived, I used the 30's book and my own memories in the 60s of measles to illustrate what nonsense that was.

"Why do people still cling to the whole herd immunity idea when it clearly offers no guarantees? Countries with above 95% vaccination rate (the magic figure that keeps getting spouted) are still having outbreaks."
Yes there are small outbreaks of a few hundred people but they are self limiting because most people are vaccinated, its when less people vaccinate we get to epidemic figures such as we now see in France

"Looktowindward - so the vaccine compensation scheme pays out on the basis of coincidence then? Yeah, right. Compensation is always handed out willy nilly. hmm"

Actually yes they do. In the US you can claim on what is called a table injury . ie if an event that is listed on the table happens within a certain time of the vaccination then they will pay out. You don't have to prove that the vaccine caused the "event" just that the "event" happened and there appears to be no other cause for it.

I'm not going to get into the argument of vac or non-vac, I'm passing on some information

there is a large measles outbreak in continental europe, there has been nearly as many if not more cases of measles to date in 2011 in France as there was in the whole of 2010.

I have been in contact with my gp regarding vac my 8month old as we are travelling to France this summer. he has said that it can be given from 6months but they will still need their normal mmr the normal times ie at 13 months and pre-school booster.

it is recommended that if you are travelling to France that your children are fully vaccinated.