Saw this headline, thought "It's GOT to be a Mumsnetter!"

[bupcakesandcunting]

Yeah, yeah, it's a Daily Mail article but still [[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389593/Are-PC-parents-world-The-couple-raising-genderless-baby--protect-right-choice.html BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA!"

They're coco loco, right? Surely no-one can say "fuck off, there's a dear" to THIS one?!

I've encountered quite a few people over the internet who were trying to bring up their children in a gender-neutral manner, so I feel quite certain that they are referring to the child by the child's name. Not "it".

Well said dittany!! You read it and think -mad as hatters-poor DC being a social experiment and then you find that people can justify it!
They are getting the two things muddled-sex as a reality and gender roles.
If I was the grandparent I would send for the birth certificate and tell everyone. (I would normally not interfere but if my own DC was to be so controlling to keep the sex secret I am not going to condone it).

(I still think that at th bottom of it they wanted girls and got 3 boys-the rest is a red herring.)

It's almost like a Chris Morris pisstake. It's so Brass Eye.

So, dittany, from what you just said about Andrej Pejic, can I deduce that you are one of those narrow-minded people who refuse to refer to a transsexual person with the personal pronoun he or she has chosen?

But if you are transgender, you have chosen a gender and therefore will refer to yourself as a man or a woman. Not just a woman when I feel like it/man when I feel like it. I think. I'm not claiming to know loads on the subject.

Look, Toby, you can't defend him just because you want to jump his bones, you randy auld mare

*dittany: These people are actually reinforcing gender, not rising above it. Because their argument appears to be that you can't rise above or combat sex-role stereotyping without denying sex all together.

I agree, actually.

"Because their argument appears to be that you can't rise above or combat sex-role stereotyping without denying sex all together."

YES. That is what I was trying to say yesterday, only in a less articulate way. Dittany, you are now employed as my mouthpiece.

Exactly, bupcakes! As a transgender person, you have CHOSEN a gender. Surely therefore proof that sex organs and gender do not always correspond!

So if you can choose a gender, surely gender can also be fluid or ambiguous, and you can indeed feel 'feminine' one day and 'masculine' another.

The fact that I would shag him six ways from Sunday is neither here nor there.

The DC will sort it out. I remember my friend's DS, long blonde hair in a pony tail using the gents and saying to someone 'I am a man you know!'
The DC in the article has no language yet so they can have it all their own way-it won't last.

What if the born-a-man has his penis removed.

Does he become more than man in a dress then?

I don't always agree with you dittany, but you are talking a lot of sense-hear, hear!

Toby; define feeling feminine or masculine for me please...?

BUT the model bloke is saying "yeah, one day I feel more like a woman..." NOT as a transexual, right? (I m assuming he is not transgender, just androgynous) without all of the associated turmoils of actually being transexual. I suspect he is saying it in a wanky, fashion kind of way, because he thinks it's an "edgy" thing to say. Also, I think it undermines the upset that actual transgender men/women go through.

If he IS a transgender person then I apologise, he is clearly talking about how his brain flits between male and female feelings, which is understandable.

Ahhh, but now how do men who feel they have been born into female bodies fit into this?

I'm not being provocative, I'm merely asking.

So if a born-a-man has gender reasssignment surgery, would you still call him a man? Or is it working ovaries that make a woman?

If it's our physical anatomy that separates us, then a born-a-man could indeed "become" a woman. If it's social conditioning, then surely the same applies?

Completely agree with Tambern.

Oh. I disagree with that. I will elaborate as soon as I get back from picking DS up!