to think there's no item of clothing or lack of that puts a woman at risk of sexual assault?

[countless]

i was just listening to 2 women and a man on r4 discussing the upcoming slut march, the name makes me cringe but i get the idea behind it...
the consensus of the 2 women was that women should be aware that what they wear has an effect upon other people that they is out of their control...

the male presenter very wisely didn't comment.

am i alone in thinking this is profoundly depressing? do people still think that it's womens clothing or lack of that encourages sexual assault??

why don't people realise that any woman or girl is at risk from a rapist and that no one is 'asking for it'. which is the message i take from discussions on womens clothing

[lesley33]

I do get annoyed about people who post opinions as if they were facts. There is research and theories around to support the view that the motivation of rapists is power and domination.

There is also research and theories around that although all rape involves power and domination, that this is only one of the motivations for rape.

Below is a publication in the National Criminal Justice Reference Service thata rgues this alternative point of view. I haven't read this, but I have read other quality research linkerd to profiler offending that argues and sets out 4 main motivations for rape - I'm not atbhome so I can't post details.

But you don't have to agree with me. Just please don't post that your opinion is fact. It is not!

www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=180475

[SardineQueen]

What are the 4 main motivations then?

[SardineQueen]

Which is the bollox distraction?

Lesley just seen you haven't got access to the 4 reasons at the moment.

[PiousPrat]

lesley33 I would argue that prostitutes may have been chosen by serial killers because of theirvunerability, but when it comes to rapists it is part vulnerability, part lack of punishment. As KungFu's example just showed, as soon as there is a suggestion that the women may work in the sex industry in some way, many peoples default position reverts to 'well it is ia question of payment then, not consent' so the rapist knows that he can probably get away with raping a prostitute and either she won't report it, or if she does, she will be doubted and he can simply say "she tried to jack up her price afterwards and i refused" and likely as not walk away with nothing more than a minor charge of paying for sex.

Meanwhile the prohibits has lost her dignity, self respect, faith in the law and her employment as no man will want to pay the hooker who cries rape

[TandB]

That link deals specifically with a study about serial rape. I am not an expert but I think the majority of one off rapists are probably very, very different in terms of their motivation from the very strange mentality that drives a serial rapist.

Having said that, regarding the serial rapist my from dealt with, it would be hard to see any sexual link between his victims given the vast disparity in age, style of dress, personal appearance, activity at the time of their attack, and methodnof attack.

[xstitch]

I don't understand the point you are trying to make sinister Nobody on this thread has said it is right what happens in these countries at war. We are discussing rape in this country on this thread. Surely you are not saying that the horrifying ordeal that these poor women have had to go through justifies in any way anybody in this country being raped.

I can tell you this much when you are being pinned down, when you are being hurt and violated you are generally not thinking about what others may have or may go through. You call it selfish if you want but it is not indicative of lack of compassion it is just trying to survive that moment when you are veering between hoping you won't die and hoping you will.

[SardineQueen]

Ok wiki

1. anger 2. power 3. sadism 4. sexual desire in tandem with anger or power and this one is described as controversial
   

Struggling to see the clothes link.

[TandB]

It is all about power though. The four types are just different ways of exercising power and different reasons for wanting to do so.

[lesley33]

This is totally from memory so not necessarily 100% accurate and titlesa re probably wrong. But:

1. Sadism: Where a rapists primary motivation is to hurt and see the pain of the victim. Such rapists usually use way way more physical force than would be necessary simply to rape.
   

2. Punishment: Where rapists are trying to use rape as a punishment against their victim either as an individual or because they belong to a group that the rapist wants to punish. Common motivation during war for example.

3. Sexual Inadequacy - don't think its the right title: But basically where a rapist feels inadequate sexually within a normal relationship and thus finds sexual satisfaction hard to gain within a normal relationship. Raping is about having sex in a way that makes the rapist feel less inadequate and more masculine. Usually only uses the minimal amount of force to carry out the rape. Will sometimes believe that women enjoy being raped or claim that it wasn't rape but rough sex.

4. - rapist who actually wants a relationship. Usually a pretty inadequate person who has difficulty forming realtionships of any kind. Will use either sexual assault or rape as a way of "getting to know" the victim. Such rapists only use minimal force required and will believe that the rape can lead to a relationship. These rapists will often do things to carry on the "relationship" such as give their phone number to the victim if she requests it to "arrange another meeting" or arrange to meet up with the victim again. Obviously here the rapist has a totally distorted view of reality. But their primary motivation is bizzarely, to have a relationship.

5. There is a 5th reported motivation of rape where rape is a means to another end. Haven't read any research though to know if this is actually the primary motivation. For example, rapists who rape virgins to be cured of aids, or rapes for the purpose of joining a gang. The reported motivation by these rapists isn't rape, but rape as a means to another end.

[slightlymad72]

I have managed to find a HMPrisons document which groups rapists into 3 classifications according to their motives

"Grievance motivated offenders were low in insight and highly suspicious and resentful of others. Their offences were impulsive and vengeful rather than being sexually motivated or planned. Their criminogenic needs were defined as: impulsivity, rape justification, grievance thinking, and an avoidant, negativistic, self-defeating and dependent personality style. Following treatment, this group continued to blame others for their actions. Their level of rape-supportive beliefs and grievance towards women had decreased significantly, and their empathy for their victims improved. Emotional regulation also improved after treatment, but even after the improvement this was still at a problematic level compared to the other groups.

Sexually motivated offenders tended to have planned and fantasised about their sexual offences beforehand. Victims were selected on the basis of expediency, and violence used was instrumental, e.g. to avoid detection. These men were motivated to work on their problems, and were not particularly impulsive, hostile or aggressive. They tended to have stereotypical views about the sexes and believed that a man is entitled to have sex. Following treatment, this group took significantly more responsibility for their offending, their empathy with their victims and their attitudes about rape had improved, and they were better able to regulate their emotions. However, stereotypical views about women, and attitudes about the acceptance of violence against women, had not changed in this group.

Sadistically motivated offenders (sexual murderers only) were fascinated by sexual violence and sexually aroused by thoughts such as death or torture. Their offences were usually planned and tended to involve strangulation, stabbing, mutilation and post-mortem sexual interference. This group did not particularly hold offence-supportive attitudes. They were callous and had shallow emotions and a tendency to angry thinking. Following treatment, this group took more responsibility for their offending and were less likely to ascribe their offences to poor mental health such as depression. Attitudes towards other people in general and to their specific victims were less hostile. Angry thinking had also been reduced in this group"

This is quoted from www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/assets/.../100013DFSTEP4report(SOTP).doc (hope it works as it opens into a word document)

[slightlymad72]

I'll try the link again //www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/assets/.../100013DFSTEP4report(SOTP).doc

[lesley33]

As I said you don't have to agree with my 4/5 motivations that I have posted. But just accept that saying the motivation for rape is power and domination is only an opinion. I personally think it is way more complicated than that.

[SardineQueen]

None of these "categories" says that the men are raping because they are being driven to do so by the sight of a bit of leg.

It's all because they are right bastards.

[DontCallMePeanut]

agrees with Sardine Queen

[SardineQueen]

lesley the thread is about whether what a woman is wearing can drive a man to rape her.

Your categories don't seem to talk about clothing one way or another. I'm not sure what your point was with your original post?

[lesley33]

I never ever said they were raping because they were driven to by the sight of a leg.

All you seem to do is turn every debating point into a simplistic meaningless post!

[HandDivedScallopsrgreat]

lesley - I would say that all those categories you have listed demonstrate entitlement by the rapist and a desire for dominance over the woman (as with slightlymad's list). I am with SQ in not understanding your point.

[SardineQueen]

Hmmmm

Lesley. So in a situation where a man and a woman are together, maybe they have had sex before. He fancies her and wants to have sex with her. So far so good. Difficulty is that she doesn't want to have sex with him, and tells him so. He really really wants to have sex with her though. So he does it anyway.

Is this the sort of motivation you are talking about where it's not straightforward?

The fact is though that he is having sex with her even though she has told him she doesn't want to. He is having sex with her against her will. In doing this, he is dominating her. He has power over her. He can rape her, she can't stop him (or is too scared or shocked to try).

If someone is having sex with someone against their wishes then by definition they are exercising power, and they are dominating them.

Or was that not the sort of thing you were thinking of?

[SardineQueen]

Lesley I think the difficulty is that you didn't explain your first post, and it included some research from convicted rapists saying that it wasn't their faul, honest guv. I'm having to try and guess what your original point was. What was it?

[lesley33]

My point with my original post was that dressing sexily might draw the attention of a stranger rapist and so make you slightly more vulnerable. But the slight increase is small.

For example, a rapist who is sexually inadequate is motivated partly by the wish to have sex. So a woman who looks more sexually attractive may draw this rapists attention more quickly than a woman not dressed sexually.

But I also said that the main thing that makes you at risk of rape is your actual or perceived vulnerability. So if you are alone with nobody else about, very drunk and alone, a street prostitute, homeless, living alone, on a date and went back to your date's house alone, a hitch hiker, etc - all of these make you more vulnerable because it is easier for the rapist to rape you without interference or detection.

[DontCallMePeanut]

I do agree, all of those points raise the subject of male dominance to me.

The mans desires are overpowering what the woman wants. The man is dominating, therefore overPOWERing the woman.

[xstitch]

To me all these categories are about the rapist exerting power and control. The power to hurt, the power to punish, the control of sexuality and to effectively force someone into a relation ship with them. It is about them feeling powerful and in control an attempt to get a person to conform to their way of thinking by using what is actually violence. Most of the rapes I know of would fall into the first 3 categories.

[xstitch]

x-post with DCMP.