to think there's no item of clothing or lack of that puts a woman at risk of sexual assault?

[countless]

i was just listening to 2 women and a man on r4 discussing the upcoming slut march, the name makes me cringe but i get the idea behind it...
the consensus of the 2 women was that women should be aware that what they wear has an effect upon other people that they is out of their control...

the male presenter very wisely didn't comment.

am i alone in thinking this is profoundly depressing? do people still think that it's womens clothing or lack of that encourages sexual assault??

why don't people realise that any woman or girl is at risk from a rapist and that no one is 'asking for it'. which is the message i take from discussions on womens clothing

[MillyR]

Nijinsky, I did read a piece of research many years ago, where they interviewed convicted rapists. Overwhelmingly, they said they targeted women who looked demure - they mentioned students and housewives as the type of look they went for. They selected women who they thought would never want to have sex with them.

Obviously this isn't representative, because most rapists are not convicted, and I suspect their responses are more representative of violent stranger rapes, rather than rape in general; I assume such rapists are easier to convict than rapes where the offender is known to the victim, although I don't know.

[chandellina]

are there young boys and men who acknowledge they pressured a girl or women into having sex or that she may even have resisted? absolutely. It is incredibly common for both genders to have experienced a situation like this, where the lines were blurry on consent.


There are lots of places where if you walk down the street wearing sexy clothes you will literally be groped. I was only trying to make the point that the question is not well worded that to be lightly clothed might put a woman at risk - of course it might. That is very different from saying it invites assault.

[DontCallMePeanut]

I was quite lucky on the date rape scenario... someone accidentally spiked my ex's drink, although it seems it was intended for me. Luckily, I'd been with a large gang who would have knocked ten bells out of anyone who'd tried anything. We didn't know anything had happened until the ex sat there nearly passing out. He'd eaten before we came out, and was on his second v + c.

Sorry to hear it, Lesley. I asked because you seem very matter of fact about it, and that raised a few questions for me.

[lesley33]

Yes I have been raped by a boyfriend - now ex! And although he dominated me physically, I think his primary motivation was sex.

[nijinsky]

Its a strange result, but the conclusion about any alleged connection between clothes and women being raped that you would get from this thread is that wearing trousers, being wrapped up and not wearing revealing clothes makes you, if anything, more likely to be raped.

The same is borne out in my own experience, I was, fortunatley, not raped but a flasher did attempt to drag me down a narrow alleyway. It was winter and I was wearing a long, loosely fitting, warm black parka. I was also wearing solid platform boots (which I can run in, actually), which enabled me to kick him so effectively that he let me go.

I also believe I was given a "date rape" drug in a club once - again this happened in a club full of people, where I was with my friends. Again, fortunately I got home (on my own, in a taxi) safely. The crowded setting, or being with my friends, did not help me.

Both men were waiting to select a victim and seize their opportunity. The clothes thing is an excuse accuseds in a rape trials use as a tactic to get off, not a reason women are raped in the first place.

[lesley33]

Of course there is no excuse for rapists. And I am not saying that women are ever to blame for being raped - they are not! And yes lots of women are raped who would be seen by society as the opposite of being sexy - elderly woman in their 80's and 90's for example.

But we all I am sure teach our children things to do to lessen the risk of them being attacked. Just as we teach stranger danger to try and stop our children being snatched. That doesn't mean if they are snatched that it is the child's fault or ours. Or that children aren't snatched from locked houses, their bedrooms or hospitals - they are.

But we do need to be aware of things that might increase our vulnerability. Of course it is a balance between living our lives and protecting ourselves. Some women for example never go outside the house alone when it is dark. That would be a step far too far for me. But there are places I wouldn't walk through late at night.

[DontCallMePeanut]

don't work yourself up, please...

Lesley, out of curiousity, have you ever been in that situation?

[xstitch]

I mean most not all. Sorry about that.

[xstitch]

I said most not many. My only evidence the feeling of wanting to die every day of every year and having the knowledge that I am likely to always feel like that because my rapist still controls my life and has legals sanction for doing so. You are right not to believe me though my opinion is worthless as I am only a scummy tart.

If anyone could see me you would understand I am the complete antithesis of what anybody I have ever met would consider sexy. In worthless opinion if a man feels sexually aroused, doesn't have a willing partner and feels he can't resist the urge then he has a hand and plenty of private places to go ON HIS OWN. It is not as if there are no other options for him.

[lesley33]

Because the primary reason women are selected as targets of rape is vulnerability i.e. how easy it is for the rapist to commit the crime.

But I have already said that twice, but you continue to ignore that and just twist my postings.

[DontCallMePeanut]

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure if someone saw a woman ccompletely naked on the street, the first thought would not be "she's asking to be raped". Instead, it would be "there's something wrong with her" (society doesn't deal well with publicc nudity)

And whereas provocative cllothing may produce sexual feelings, are you really saying that ALL men are that animalistic they cannot control their urges? If that was the case, wouldn't every man be a revealing outfit away from being a rapist?

[SardineQueen]

Chandellina so your idea is that a woman's clothing or state of inebriation can drive a law abiding and upstanding man to rape?

That all men are potential rapists? Just show them a really hot, unconscious woman and they'll all be at it?

That's just nonsense.

[lesley33]

xstitch - you challenged me - so where is the research that shows no rape is motivated by sex. I know it is a well accepted theory - but I think it would be impossible to evidence your opinion.

[xstitch]

If it is so ridiculous why are so many women raped when wearing a lot of clothes and not looking remotely sexy then?

[xstitch]

I disagree you would be hard pressed to find a rape that was motivated by actual sex. Which is why many rapists continue to taunt and humiliate their victims after the event. It is an extension of that power and control.

[chandellina]

i think there is evidence of plenty of rapes that were not about power. They are about intense sexual desire and taking advantage of a woman not in a fit state to consent or not. Sometimes this is later regarded as rape by one or the other party; often it is not.

I still find it ridiculous to state unequivocally that "there's no item of clothing or lack of that puts a woman at risk of sexual assault" - if you are lightly clothed or naked on the street in certain countries you will almost certainly be sexually assualted. That is a big distinction from saying you DESERVE it though.

let's not be naiive though that provocative clothing does not provoke sexual feelings, and that acquaintance rape is solely about violence and not sex.

[lesley33]

Of course any situation where a woman doesn't want to have sex is rape. It doesn't matter if she has had sex with him before, is in bed naked with him, etc. And every rape involves dominance.

But I don't think the primary motivation for every rape is dominance.

This isn't in answer to the OP's post but to other posters who have said that the motivation for rape is dominance and power and nothing to do with sex.

[xstitch]

x-post with DCMP.

[xstitch]

To me all these categories are about the rapist exerting power and control. The power to hurt, the power to punish, the control of sexuality and to effectively force someone into a relation ship with them. It is about them feeling powerful and in control an attempt to get a person to conform to their way of thinking by using what is actually violence. Most of the rapes I know of would fall into the first 3 categories.

[DontCallMePeanut]

I do agree, all of those points raise the subject of male dominance to me.

The mans desires are overpowering what the woman wants. The man is dominating, therefore overPOWERing the woman.

[lesley33]

My point with my original post was that dressing sexily might draw the attention of a stranger rapist and so make you slightly more vulnerable. But the slight increase is small.

For example, a rapist who is sexually inadequate is motivated partly by the wish to have sex. So a woman who looks more sexually attractive may draw this rapists attention more quickly than a woman not dressed sexually.

But I also said that the main thing that makes you at risk of rape is your actual or perceived vulnerability. So if you are alone with nobody else about, very drunk and alone, a street prostitute, homeless, living alone, on a date and went back to your date's house alone, a hitch hiker, etc - all of these make you more vulnerable because it is easier for the rapist to rape you without interference or detection.

[SardineQueen]

Lesley I think the difficulty is that you didn't explain your first post, and it included some research from convicted rapists saying that it wasn't their faul, honest guv. I'm having to try and guess what your original point was. What was it?

[SardineQueen]

Hmmmm

Lesley. So in a situation where a man and a woman are together, maybe they have had sex before. He fancies her and wants to have sex with her. So far so good. Difficulty is that she doesn't want to have sex with him, and tells him so. He really really wants to have sex with her though. So he does it anyway.

Is this the sort of motivation you are talking about where it's not straightforward?

The fact is though that he is having sex with her even though she has told him she doesn't want to. He is having sex with her against her will. In doing this, he is dominating her. He has power over her. He can rape her, she can't stop him (or is too scared or shocked to try).

If someone is having sex with someone against their wishes then by definition they are exercising power, and they are dominating them.

Or was that not the sort of thing you were thinking of?

[HandDivedScallopsrgreat]

lesley - I would say that all those categories you have listed demonstrate entitlement by the rapist and a desire for dominance over the woman (as with slightlymad's list). I am with SQ in not understanding your point.