to think there's no item of clothing or lack of that puts a woman at risk of sexual assault?

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i was just listening to 2 women and a man on r4 discussing the upcoming slut march, the name makes me cringe but i get the idea behind it...
the consensus of the 2 women was that women should be aware that what they wear has an effect upon other people that they is out of their control...

the male presenter very wisely didn't comment.

am i alone in thinking this is profoundly depressing? do people still think that it's womens clothing or lack of that encourages sexual assault??

why don't people realise that any woman or girl is at risk from a rapist and that no one is 'asking for it'. which is the message i take from discussions on womens clothing

I'm not saying it's an excuse.

Bah, best shuut up on this one

Right, I'll try and articulate my point a bit better.

Two people meet at a party. Go back to the girls flat after an evening of kissing. They're both completely trollied. They start kissing, maybe even foreplay.

Now if she consents, even though she's too drunk to make a conscious decision, and intercourse ensues, then that is classed as rape where the law is concerned. However, in the lads eyes, she's consented. But it's still rape.

I'm not saying it's always the case, even with drunk rape. BUT I do think this is an area which needs to be drilled into the minds of men everywhere. You can rape a woman, even though it appears consensual to you, if she's too drunk to knowingly give consent.

Yes, most rapes are premeditated. But there is a VERY small minority which could be avoided to better education of when consent doesn't count.

Yes, I agree there, but with regards to my previous post. If a girl consents in her drunken state, yet doesn't remember consenting when she wakes up. Then what? Surely you need a certain level of capability to make a decent level of consent?

Lets say she's at the point where she doesn't KNOW what she's saying yes to?

What if she doesn't give consent, but gives no indication that she doesn't want sex (out of shock, etc)

I'm not saying they're EXCUSES. What I'm saying is men need to rethink the boundaries when getting consent from a woman. If she's too drunk, you stay clear.

Under your definition of consent, what about teenage girls, under the age of consent, who've been groomed? Are you saying they can't have been raped?

OK, just to add to my point about alcohol and consent, I found a video on youtube which I think sums it up.

This is Australia's take on alcohol and consent... something to consider?

If a girl consents in her drunken state, yet doesn't remember consenting when she wakes up.

That does not make a man a rapist. Consent was given at the time. That is a morning-after-regret and the female trying to better the situation by claiming it wasn't her fault she consented.

Apologies if i am going over something that has already been discussed but with regard to what a woman wears attracting unwanted attraction,i have 2 different situations that i have been in.

First one,i was 15 & had a part time job cleaning the office of our local quarry,i would wear jeans,baggy sweatshirt & my red kickers,(in the 80's) & one of the men who worked in the quarry was tasked with taking me home afterwards,one particular day he asked me if i would clean his house for him as his wife was in hospital having just had their first child,i asked my Mum & she agreed i could.Simply because the manager of the quarry was known to my family & my Mum thought if Mr Manager trusted this man to drive me home then he could be trusted.

He lived about 4 miles from where i lived & he came to our house,picked me up & dropped me off at his.All was well & he showed me where the hoover was,duster,polish etc,after about 1/2 hr he came into the kitchen & told me he was going to pop to the shops & would be about 20mins,he said there was something on the tv that i might want to watch,then as he going out of the door he asked me if i was a virgin.

I was very scared then as i was a young 15 & had never actually kissed anyone yet,i went into the lounge & saw he had put a porn film on,bear in mind i was 15,very naive & scared witless by this.

I didnt know where i was but i got my coat & left,found a phone box,called my Aunt & she came for me.I never told anybody what had happened as i was very scared & frankly embarressed.

The second instance was in a pub on a girls night out,i was wearing a black pleated mini skirt,white halterneck top,stockings & high heels,i was 19 so this was early 90's,there was about 8 of us girls & this middle aged man grabbed my arm & asked me how much?

I get free but he followed us round the pub & kept staring,in the end i asked one of the doormen to tell him to leave me alone.

Both circumstances were scarey in different ways & i was wearing completely different outfits,i dont think it matters what a woman wears,if a man has intent to harm in any way then maybe thats all he sees iyswim?

Oh how exciting! Are we onto the topic of women having sex they regret and "crying rape" to the police in the morning?

Because that happens all the time. Women are, in the main, thick, drunken fools who are unable to deal with the consequences of their own actions, and so vicious that they are quite happy to report innocent men to the police. They do it all the time. What women wouldn't be happy to submit herself to a battery of intrusive medical tests and through-the-wringer questioning by police, in order to vindictively accuse a man of rape for no apparent reason? Of course women do it a lot. Women are, in fact, all unhinged.

What a depressing and upsetting thread, that people are trying to still victim blame, or excuse 'young' men's confusion about boundaries, seriously seem to believe that there is anything we can do to 'rape proof' ourselves just makes me want to despair.

As DoingTheBestThat's examples illustrates, it is not what we are wearing that provokes violent, hate attacks against us, it is all about power(as many have said earlier on this thread).

I agree with dittany its not actually confusing at all. It is the confusion that is portrayed by rapists as part of their defence, as part of their further humiliation of their victim.

If I ever have a son I will tell him (more than once) that if a woman is intoxicated or in some other way incapable of actively consenting to sex then she has not consented and you must assume she doesn't want to. It is far better to avoid intercourse and it turn out she did want it than to rape someone. I suspect it will be an uphill struggle though with the way today's society views things.

To say either its the victims fault or that men can't help themselves is demeaning to both men and women. Men can help it, there is just a disgusting section of the male population who don't want to.

Clothing sends out messages and leads others to make assumptions about us. We spend a lot of time choosing 'the right outfit' for the occasion which means there's also a 'wrong outfit'. Someone wearing the wrong colour football shirt in the wrong part of town can become a target for assault. The kid in the hoodie has people nervously crossing the street late at night. A woman wearing a tutu to do the grocery shopping raises a few eyebrows. Look like a victim and you're more likely to become one. Look like an agressor and you'll be treated like one. Wear an inappropriate outfit and you might attract ridicule or insults.

Clothing provokes reactions and, whilst ideally we can all wear what we like and expect to be left alone, we also have to be prepared to deal with those reactions.

cogito have you read the whole thread. Most of the victims of rape who have posted were wearing normal everyday clothes that covered most of them when they were raped. You are just as likely to be raped when covered up.

When I was raped I was wearing trousers, a long sleeved high necked top, my hair needed washed and I had a red nose from the cold.

A man tried to feel me up on the train once. I was wearing my work uniform which consisted of a below knee skirt, a 'sensible' white blouse, it was cold so I was wearing a woolly cardigan and a long winter coat over it.

My usual reaction to seeing skimpy clothes is to wonder why they are not cold.

Back again to the idea that there is a way of dressing that is an active invitation to rape. So the idea that if a woman is eg wearing a short skirt, then naturally that will mean men will want to rape her, and women should understand that before they get dressed.

Are people serious about this stuff?

So if a 14yo schoolgirl has a short skirt and is on her way to school, she should not be surprised if a man rapes her, because she has gone out dressed in a way that makes it clear that she is asking for it?

FFS

It all gets so ridiculous. Rapists will tend to have something they chose their victims by and that will be different for each one. Rapist a may have a thing about blonde hair so does that mean any victim is at fault because they didn't dye their hair another colour. OK dye your hair problem solved dye your hair but rapist B has a thing about women with dyed hair. Oops, See gets stupid doesn't it. THE PERSON TO BLAME FOR A RAPE IS THE RAPIST.

normal men are not driven to rape by the sight of a bit of leg

rapists will rape irrespective of what the victim is wearing. If you are unfortunate enough to find yourself alone with a rapist, then it will not matter one iota what you are wearing, how high your heels are, how much makeup you have on, or any of the rest of it

I understand perfectly well that people are raped wearing 'sensible' clothes the same as people are beaten up when they are not wearing the wrong football shirt and that not everyone in a hoodie is about to mug you for your wallet. It would be ridiculous to suggest there was a straight-line cause and effect. But to say that how we appear in public has no bearing on how others perceive or treat us is equally ridiculous... and rather naive.

It may make people think something but it does not make someone rape you. It should never be a valid defence in court. It is not naive to think the only person to blame for rape is the rapist. It is perhaps naive to think the system will ever agree with that but it still doesn't justify rape.