to think there's no item of clothing or lack of that puts a woman at risk of sexual assault?

[countless]

i was just listening to 2 women and a man on r4 discussing the upcoming slut march, the name makes me cringe but i get the idea behind it...
the consensus of the 2 women was that women should be aware that what they wear has an effect upon other people that they is out of their control...

the male presenter very wisely didn't comment.

am i alone in thinking this is profoundly depressing? do people still think that it's womens clothing or lack of that encourages sexual assault??

why don't people realise that any woman or girl is at risk from a rapist and that no one is 'asking for it'. which is the message i take from discussions on womens clothing

[xstitch]

princehumperdink was that poor girl not fully clothed when her rapist attacked her? I vaguely remember the case. It is disgusting the court allowed it and nobody made a big point of the fact that the only reason the rapist had seen her underwear was that he attacked her rather than he attacked her because he saw her underwear.

Women receive a great disservice from the prosecutors in these cases. These are the people who are supposed to be supporting them :(

[millie30]

Thanks xstitch. I know now that I wasn't to blame, I'm a good few years older now and have had counselling. It's sad that these views are still held by anyone. And when women are trying to get over their ordeals and are in a particularly vulnerable frame of mind they may actually believe it.

[DontCallMePeanut]

Yes, I'm aware of that Dittany. Unfortunately. You seem to have this opinion I'm a completely naive, misogynistic bitch.

What I'm saying is, this may be a case of views changing as these boys grow up and mature.

Of course, I'd hope intervention was given, instead of allowing these men to harbour these feelings.

[DontCallMePeanut]

link to the Lindsay Armstrong article from the Guardian (2002)

[xstitch]

You are right millie I think attitudes like these are responsible for the low reporting rates of rape. I once sat with a girl who was 4 months pregnant trying to comfort her. The baby was a product of rape, she had been in denial about the pregnancy until then and I was the first one she told. :( She asked me to call the police but ran off while I went to the phone. We tried to find her from her medical records but she had been so scared she had given a false name. I have always wondered if she was safe :(.

It was a couple of years before I told anyone about my rape. I just suddenly blurted it out one day. Fear had kept me quiet until then.

[SardineQueen]

These rules are so baffling.

Women being told not to walk alone after dark. In winter it gets dark at about 4pm. So bye bye job I guess?
Women being told always to travel home together after a night out. But women don't all live in the same house! So how on earth are they actually supposed to do that? It's nonsense.
Women being told not to walk in areas where there aren't lots of people. So that rules out buying a house in most residential areas I guess!

And so on and so on.

And none of it makes a blind bit of difference anyway. I feel so sad that women feel they have to travel in packs, when AFAIK there is no proof whatsoever that this actually helps them in any way at all.

[thefinerthingsinlife]

I posted this on my FB the other week, 10 VERY SIMPLE WAYS TO STOP RAPE!

[millie30]

That poor girl xstitch. And poor you, your situation sounds intolerable. You know, I cannot think of any other crime where people are so quick to defend the perpetrator and look for ways to blame the victim. It makes me so mad, yet sad, in equal measure.

[DontCallMePeanut]

I'm not getting wound up about it, because I got wound up about so much yesterday, and it did me no good whatsoever.

At no point have I used the term "oh those poor boys", so please don't twist my words/put words on the page I haven't said.

When I mentioned intervention, you didn't pick up on that. You cannot feasibly lock up the 1 in 2 men that have said rape may be acceptable in some cases.

Firstly, we don't have the space in our prisons.

Secondly, unfortunately, you cannot lock someone up for a crime they have not SAID they will commit.

Thirdly, could it not be more effective for them to have it drilled home what consent is, why you don't take that away from a woman, maybe hear the story of a survivor of rape.

[xstitch]

You are right there was a thread on here not so long ago where someone posted they had been burgled and she was worried she hadn't locked up properly. Everyone piled in to say it wasn't her fault and it was the burglars. Of course they were right but....

A woman says she has been raped she is asked what were you wearing?, were you drinking? Where were you? what were you doing? Are you sure you said no? That's just other women.

[SardineQueen]

I hadn't heard of Lindsay Armstrong before. It's absolutely heartbreaking.

Four fucking years.

[JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar]

I've been skimming through the rest of the thread.

In short OP - YANBU.

I can think of very few other crimes where people feel it's OK to blame the victim.

[DontCallMePeanut]

Yes, I am angry about them. But I am not getting myself wound up, inducing another flashback and having another panic attack. Sorry about that. Or would you prefer I went into meltdown?

I've used the term "boys" in a metaphorical sense. When I split from my ex, my dad refused to call him a man. His words; "Men don't abuse women, they respect them and treat them the way a woman should. Men that abuse women in any respect are just little boys".

Also, at no point have I read what the target age of the survey was. I may actually be even more accurate than you're accepting.

[lubberlich]

I am in my 40s - I remember the Reclaim The Night marches. I cannot tell you how much it depresses me that women are still having to have this conversation.

When I was 17 I was sexually assaulted near Piccadilly Circus . It was the middle of the day.
When I told a policeman he said "What do you expect dressed like that." I was wearing jeans and a jacket and trainers. He then said "Why were you loitering round here like a prositute?"
I said I was just standing by the theatre waiting to meet my Mum and Dad.

And so at the tender age of 17 I learnt that this society blames women for everything.
Rape is not about sex, rape is about violence and hatred.

Fuck them. Fight back.

[DontCallMePeanut]

No, I was giving examples.

AFAIC, a man who rapes is not a real man. I am not minimising the act, I'm not providing an excuse. I'm just saying, to me, it does not matter how old a man is if he rapes a woman. He does not deserve the title "man"

I did not say men get accused of rape just because a woman is drunk. I was trying to point out that a man sleeping with a woman who is drunk is risky, and in some countries, considered illegal.

[millie30]

DontCallMePeanut I'm really struggling to understand the points that you are making. There is no middle ground on this issue, either you blame rapists entirely for their crimes or you don't. By constantly coming up with mitigating factors such as age, alcohol etc you contribute to a situation where rape goes unreported, rapists get away with it and victims are disbelieved or blamed.