WIBU to let her cry it out?

[VickyVan75]

Please help me. My 4 mo dd fights sleep. It has got so bad that I spend the majority of my day and evening trying to soothe her to sleep while she screams in my ear. It is exhausting. It takes me a good hour and a half to get her to nap and then she will only nap for 30 minutes. This happens three times a day. In the evening the fun really starts. I bring her up at 5.30/6.00 start the wind down routine, as soon as I put her in her cot she screams and will not settle until about 9.00/9.30. I am spending at least 7 hours in her room trying to get her to sleep...every day...EVERY DAY!!!!

I have tried everything..routine, baby whisperer technique, white noise, blackout blinds...you name it and it just seems to be getting worse. I have come to the conclusion that she is overtired and am considering (even though I said I never would) controlled crying.

WIBU?

Vicky, do listen to colditz, she is talking a lot of sense :)

My 2 DS's were/are both non-sleepers (although 3yo DS sleeps great now).

The most stress came from trying to 'fix' DS1. With DS2 I planned and expected the constant babywearing / cosleeping etc and although his sleep is just as bad - we're both much happier - and well rested thanks to cosleeping. Be kind to yourself - and her :)

colditz I interact with her - singing (even though I am tone deaf) and chatting to her all day long. She loves to 'babble'. I am out and about for a good part of the day and I have friends/family who call in throughout the day. We have loads of toys but she is not interested. I give her a massage everyday which she loves. She also loves the bath. She seems more interested in human interaction at this stage.

Ah yes, the built in spirit level that detects when you sit down/stop bouncing. I think most of them go through that stage. It's not fun but it does pass. DH and I bounced/rocked while chatting or watching tv and once they were asleep we'd sit down with them upright on our chest. I do remember that neither of the boys liked sleeping flat on their backs. They always slept better on us or on their tummy on a pillow beside us on the couch ( we wouldn't leave them alone like this) We cosleep so I did find that they liked to sleep with their head on my shoulder/tummy/breasts too which suited me fine but I know it's not for everyone. BTW that was a short phase that they grew out of and both boys happily go to bed in quiet rooms without us ever using any form of 'sleep training' so the whole 'conditioning' thing from an early age is bolleaux IMO :)

Meh. I tried. Colditz just because you argue more forcefully doesn't mean you're right.

We condition children everyday, of course we do. We teach them not to hit, not to swear, not to pull hair. We teach them how to hold a fork, how to say thank you, how to throw a ball. We start them young because we know that it's our job as parents to teach the right way and the wrong way. Just today I taught my baby girl how to hold her own spoon. I see that as my job. Just as teaching her how to fall asleep peacefully was my job. It wasn't cruel or mean; it was patient and loving and deliberate.

I think at four months old its entirely developmentally appropriate. At four weeks, maybe not, but FOUR MONTHS!?

Before I go: check out cranial osteopathy particularly if you had a difficult birth. Good luck OP.

Actually kiwi, I disagree that we need to start teaching those things at age 4 months in order for them to work. I have proof in my own children that it isn't necessary. You obviously haven't experienced that because you chose a different method but that doesn't mean your way is right and no other way will work. There are plenty of children who have managed without being 'conditioned' from a few months old.

Where does this idea of having to 'teach' babies to sleep come from anyway? They know how to sleep before they are born!

Colditz, I like your style.

My Ds was an effing nightmare to get to sleep at four months, you have my sympathy.

Have you tried a sling where she is held in an upright position? My Ds also refuses to nap in the pram or car seat, but he naps fantastically well upright in the sling. We now use an Ergo and started off with a Wilkinet. He loves it and we get out and about thanks to it!

Quite, bubbley

OP I apologise for hijacking your thread, and wish you all the best with whatever you try to do, but just wanted to respond to a couple of comments on my post:

Colditz The point about not picking up or giving eye contact at that particular moment is not to overstimulate a baby who may well be overstimulated and overtired and hence struggling to switch off and go to sleep. I am not saying this is the case for every baby who doesn't sleep, but am utterly sure it was for my son, and this is borne out by his general temperament as an older child - easily overstimulated, needs loads of downtime, including time by himself etc. Believe me, I had tried every possible way of getting him to sleep and was a mental and physical wreck with a grumpy and overtired baby until I found an approach that worked for both of us. I was physically unable to use a sling because of back pain, feeding to sleep didn't work, and I would spend an hour pushing him in the buggy for him to sleep just 10 minutes.

The whole point of my post was that it is possible (if it works for both mother and baby) to do a version of teaching your baby to sleep in which you are not leaving them alone but supporting them and physically being there with them through it, and I think that continual physical touch and using your voice is a strong presence but less stimulating than eye contact and taking them out of bed only to try and put them back in (I had previously tried this type of approach, only to find that he got more and more upset). This was the best thing I ever did for both of us and I was once again able to enjoy my baby, who was also able to enjoy life as he was no longer exhausted.

Finallygotaroundto it I didn't say ANYTHING about solids. When I mentioned feeding him, I was meaning milk. The graphs were just what was in the book I mentioned, which was recommended to me by a government-run baby clinic in NZ and which I found very helpful and supportive in offering a middle course between leaving babies to cry and having them permanently attached to your breast or in a sling (an approach that had left me depressed and exhausted).
As for the stories, I always read the same story initially so that my son had a regular bedtime ritual - it was a lovely short rhyming story and he seemed to enjoy hearing it, looking at it and eventually (not sure what age) turning the pages, so I don't see what is wrong with that! Babies are never too young to enjoy books appropriate to their age - it's something we value in our family and I'm really pleased that my 7yo and 3yo love books.

Kiwiinkits I also wanted to say I agree with your view - maybe it's a pragmatic Kiwi thing

I had thsi with my first. The midwife said to me that she was used to being close to me in my tummy and wasn't ready yet to feel separate from me. She advised me to use a sling and keep her as close physically to me as I could. I won't pretend everything instantly got better when I tried this, but it does help.

BTW when using a sling, my babies seemed to settle more if I was busy doing things - walking about, etc - than if I was just sitting down.

I would try cranial osteopathy.
Did CC with DS but he was 6 months. I am not sure I'd do it with a four months old but if you have tried everything else and she is crying anyway, it could be worth a shot.

It can be hard knowing whether they're undertired or overtired. Ditto knowing whether your presence is helping or hindering their sleep. On the latter, both my dcs strongly prefer me with them as they go to sleep, and I have gone with this for reasons I won't go into here. But on nights when it takes them a while to fall asleep, I'm aware that I get frustrated and angry, and they must sense this and find it harder to settle. Silly little tip, this, but I've found that sitting with them while reading my kindle really helps. I don't care how long it takes them to go to sleep because I'm reading. They know I'm there but but I won't respond to interaction. I suppose I'm suggesting that you work on being a calm presence, in whatever way works for you.

Haven't read all the posts so forgive me if I say something irrelevant in the context of things.

I had a similar thing happen with DS2. At about 7 months I stopped being able to get him to sleep and he wouldn't sleep on his own. The only way he would be sleep would be by being rocked to sleep... by dh. Which obviously was a problem when his dad was at work all week! People that haven't been through it don't understand just how miserable a baby who can't sleep gets. It's nothing about wanting them to nap for your convenience.

Anyway, I had said never to the controlled crying. But after getting desperate, just put him down at nap-times in his cot and after three days he was happily waving goodbye at nap-times. He went from clingy and grouchy to the happiest, friendliest baby I knew. And he's still a good sleeper now at 3years.

You could try the book, 'healthy sleep habits happy child.' It's a brick of a book, with a bit of a confusing layout for tried parents. But... it changed my life (and made me neurotic about maximising my dcs' sleep!)

I'm quite shocked by how many people are recommending 'sleep training' methods for a 4 1/2 month old.

Dd (9 mo) isn't a sleeper, never has been. I was the same apparently. We started off with her in a cot by the bed, but now co sleep and all that lives in her cot are her toys! When we made te conscious decision to stop battling with our baby (important to remember that is what they are) life became so much more chilled. I have her in a wrap sling most of the day, she naps on me or next to me if we're at home and I have time to sit with her. She is still rocked to sleep for any daytime naps that aren't slung, and bf to sleep at night.

We are gradually reintroducing her cot, she goes in for the first few hours of each night then when she wakes and won't resettle she goes either on our bed if we're still downstairs or just in with us.

4 mo is still very small really.

I wouldn't go down the controlled crying route -- from what I hear it just doesn't work and I couldn't do it. Are you putting her to bed the minute she shows signs of tiredness or are you waiting until she's actually crying? IME if you let them get overtired you extend massively the period of time it takes to get them to sleep. If you get the right sleep window, so to speak, they will go down almost instantaneously. But that might just be me. Also sounds obvious but have you checked to make sure she doesn't have any physical pain from wind or anything? finally, is it possible she has colic?

I can't strongly recommend enough cranial oestopathy. Both my dds were instrumental deliveries and saw cranial oestopaths by the time they were a couple of months old. In New Zealand all babies that are instrumental deliveries are routinely referred to see a cranial oestopath. You have nothing to lose by seeing one.

Jeckadeck, CC does work for some people.

I feel for you I really do, but like others have said it's quite normal for 4 mo's. I would try to stop fighting it as it's getting you nowhere and accept that this is the current situation.

Lots of good advice re: slings etc already, so I won't reiterate. No, I don't think controlled crying is the answer, especially with such a young baby but I can understand why you are considering it. Try to view this as a passing phase.

4 months is definitely too young. They have so many developmental leaps, growth spurts etc to come that it just isn't worth it yet.

I think the general recommendation is 1 yr at the youngest.

Vicky - from your description your DD could be my DS2's twin. I have some good news, DS2 was just vaccinated, so the doc checked him over, not only did she assure me that the behaviour is all normal, but that DS2 is apparently very advanced for his age - super aware, very strong, extremely interested in interacting with his surroundings - like a 7-8mo.
Which means it's exhausting for us, but our kids are doing well.

The doc said I should relax, go with the flow, stop comparing with (unusually easy) DS1 and know this is one of the toughest phases and it will get better.

(DS2 was a super easy birth, so in our case that can't be an issue.)

I agree strongly with Colditz.

I really find the view that very young babies need to be taught "good habits" extremely odd. The human race has trundled on for thousands of years without parents panicking over routines and bad habits - and we have not suffered from generation after generation of people who have never learned how to sleep.

A young baby has pretty basic needs and pretty basic understanding - it needs food, warmth and comfort and the only way it can communicate those needs is to cry. Young babies don't cry because they are manipulative, or because they are stubborn - they cry because they want something. If that something is simply to be close to their mother then that is a legitimate need.

The vast majority of babies will learn to sleep themselves when they are developmentally ready to do so, or when whatever need is stopping them from sleeping becomes less pressing or disappears. In western culture we seem obsessed with what our babies SHOULD be doing at any given time, rather than just accepting what they are doing and going with that.

In my view, controlled crying or cry it out is simply a way of pushing a baby forward to a developmental stage they haven't reached naturally.

weta that is alot like what I do! (although I have not heard of or read that book) My ds has always been good at going to bed as I have had him in a bedtime routine from 6 weeks (i.e bath at 7, feed, story and then bed) but he does wake sometmes although he doesnt feed through the night anymore so I too pat/rum his tummy and shhh him back to sleep. It works well for me.