WIBU to let her cry it out?

[VickyVan75]

Please help me. My 4 mo dd fights sleep. It has got so bad that I spend the majority of my day and evening trying to soothe her to sleep while she screams in my ear. It is exhausting. It takes me a good hour and a half to get her to nap and then she will only nap for 30 minutes. This happens three times a day. In the evening the fun really starts. I bring her up at 5.30/6.00 start the wind down routine, as soon as I put her in her cot she screams and will not settle until about 9.00/9.30. I am spending at least 7 hours in her room trying to get her to sleep...every day...EVERY DAY!!!!

I have tried everything..routine, baby whisperer technique, white noise, blackout blinds...you name it and it just seems to be getting worse. I have come to the conclusion that she is overtired and am considering (even though I said I never would) controlled crying.

WIBU?

What activities do you do when the baby is awake? It could be that she is over stimulated or under stimulated. I found that with my ds (15 weeks old)I was poss over stimulating him ( trips to noisy shops/games etc) was just too much for him, especially before naps. I basically went back to basics, I brought the Moses basket downstairs, cancelled all trips out ( except walks in the pram as they need fresh air) for around three days so I could watch my ds to understand his natural sleep, eat and activity pattern. I had a note pad handy and basically made a note of when he ate then played a little and watched him for signs of tiredness (made a note of the time) as soon as I spotted these I would sit down for cuddles, once he dropped off I would put him down in his basket. After 3 days I could see a pattern and applied this our daily life. We now go out and socialise but i make sure he gets his naps. A good bed time routine is helpful as well we do bath, feed , bed...it normally starts around 6.45 and he's in bed by 7.30pm maybe 5 pm is too early.

Sprinkles "You can do a more age appropriate version where you go in every 5 minutes or so just to reassure baby that you're there, ..."

Am I missing something? That just sounds like cc to me which I don't think is advised at all at this stage.

B4Beatrice I have stopped swaddling as she likes to suck her hands and doesn't like it anymore.

sprinkles77 She feeds well and after her big night sleep she is a happy, smiley baby. My mother is the only one who has looked after her and she said she is 'spoilt'

She won't fall asleep on me either. I have tried bringing her into my bed at naptime but no joy either.

Oh vicky you can't spoil a baby with love and attention and responding to their needs. What an awful thing for your mum to say.

bubbley, controlled crying in its full on form ends up with your baby crying unattended for as long as it takes for it to get to sleep, possibly hours. So you don't check if there's a real problem, like a trapped burp or a dirty nappy.

vicky, I'm sure she is not spoilt. Actually, if she has a good sleep and is happy after, maybe she doesn't need her naps, which is of course irritating as it makes it trickier to get on and do stuff!

Have you tried a dummy?

For activity time, she likes her gym, not that interested in toys mostly she likes to be standing on my lap or on the ground looking around. She loves standing and would do it all day given the opportunity. I bought a swing but she doesn't like it. I often go to a local shopping centre and she seems to like it. She will have her nap while we are walking around with a small bit of fussing. However when I bring her for a walk in the fresh air she will not settle at all.

compo she prefers her fingers to a dummy.

Anyone remember the TV series Tribe? Where ever in the world Bruce Parry was, you would see babies held in slings on the mother's (or someone else's) body, either asleep or awake.

There was very little crying & usually communal sleep. Nowhere were babies expected to sleep alone.

I know we are no longer living in 'tribes' but our babies don't know that! They instinctively want to be close. She will learn gradually that she will be safe if left alone - but now she is doing what she is primed to do - keep you near.

CIO (and other non responsive parenting) is thought to potentially lead to attachment disorder if used too early www.ezzo.info/Voices/frazzled.htm

Parry always concluded that modern life has been detrimental to our mental health & happiness

Hello, my dd is just coming up five months. I take your point about the overtiredness! I think it comes down to recognising when they are getting tired so that you can create the right environment for them to sleep. Sometimes I have recognised sleepiness too late and had a narky dd for the rest of the day and it has affected later naps and mood winding up with an exhausted me! Personally I don't like cry it out method.

I don't know if it helps but this is what works mostly for us:

7am wake, breastfeed, change, get both of us dressed.
Play on floor until just before 8.30am then move to rocking armchair with dd. When eyes start to close/heavy, transfer to cot for sleep. Some grisslyness/wingy cry for half a minute on transfer to cot but walk away and leave to fall asleep. Naps typically for hour to hour and half. I use this time to get ready to go out door or do housework.

10am bottlefeed, 7 oz.
Go out visiting or running errands.
If not slept in car or pram then look for sleepy signs at around 12.20.
Usually naps half an hour midday - use time to grab lunch or cuppa.

1pm bottlefeed, 7oz
If at home play on floor until 2.30pm, move to rocking chair for calm quiet play and transfer to cot for sleep. Or if I have energy go out walking at this point. Usually naps for hour to hour and half.

4pm bottlefeed, 7oz
Play until 6pm, get dinner in between.
6 - 6.30pm bath or top and tail and put in grow bag.

7pm breastfeed then bed.

Such is life, things don't always go exactly to plan. You can't stay chained to the house! Sometimes dd wakes at 6am and I have to bring forward an hour, adapt etc. but so long as she gets first nap in, it doesn't matter too much if napping goes to pot for rest of day!

She's far too young to be spoilt. It's my firm belief that a child too young to scream for sweeties is a child too young to be spoilt.

And what if she does magicaly get spoilt? Deal with it when she's old enough to understand that she doesn't NEED you next to her. At the minute, it's not teaching her anything to put her upstairs. Whe you put her down, that is her signal that you are about to Disappear. So she screams. She doesn't know you are only downstairs, for all she knows, a bear has eaten you and is about to come and eat her. So she screams.

A few family members also said I was holding her too much. I can see them giving knowing looks when she kicks off at family occasions prior to her nap.

I do hold her alot throughout the day as that is where is happiest. She likes to be in my arms or on my lap standing. I am definitely going to get a new sling. I bought one but it is with the baby facing out and it is quite cumbersome so I am going to buy one of the ones another post linked.

Maybe try putting her down in a cot and staying with her.

It could be that she wants the company, but not all the jiggliness of being held.

I agree with you 'finallygotarpundtoit'. My baby refused to go in the cot. She has always been next to me. For some strange reason in the West it's the norm to have your baby separated from you but the man shouldn't sleep alone! Quite bizarre.

Sprinkles- CC (controlled crying) is where you go in very few minuets and check and try to re settle them. Hence the word @controlled".

CIO (crying it out) is where they are left, unattended for as long as it takes.

At least that's what I have always thought. I will stand corrected, but I'm pretty convinced.

Sympathy for you OP. It sounds like a nightmare!

Your baby doesnt' know whether she's coming or going. Whatever you decide to do you need to be consistent.

I'm a big believer in consistency, and yes, routine. It sounds like you are too; it's just that you keep listening to everything that everyone else tells you. You have to decide for yourself what you're going to do; and FGS stick to it and stuff everyone else.

Your baby is clearly tired if she's showing all the tired signs. It seems like what you're doing is making her more tired. Sometimes when my DD gets overtired she's much better if I leave her to cry for a bit and then she falls asleep. But she never escalates in her crying (she's an angel baby) - and some babies do.

You said you are going in and giving her a bottle when she stirs. I'd say that's possibly the source of the problem: she's come to expect food from you when it's bedtime. It could also be giving her gas. Are you burping her after every feed? (search how to burp a baby on YouTube) And is her bottle one that prevents gas (e.g NUK)?

Also, at 4 months she could be hungry. Have you started to introduce solids?

Just to give another option, I had loads of trouble around this age (and earlier) and was really torn between all the people who say you should leave them to cry and those who say you mustn't. I was in absolute desperation as nothing worked, feeding him to sleep, taking him for a walk, nothing.

In the end what worked for me was a method detailed in a book called Sleep Right, Sleep Tight - basically the idea is that you feed them, read a story or sing a song and put them into bed, say goodnight and leave. When they start crying you go straight in and stroke or pat their tummy while also singing a song or saying sssh-sssh and continue until they stop crying. When they stop you leave but come back as soon as they start crying and continue with the patting etc until they stop. The patting and stuff kind of takes their mind off it but without stimulating them, and although it is hard to listen to them cry I found it easier psychologically as I was going through it with them and reassuring them even though they were finding it difficult to learn new habits. The book also showed a graph of the crying and how parents often give up just before it peaks and slows down - so the first time when I reached the point of giving up I just gritted my teeth and carried on for another few minutes and then he stopped or at least started winding down.

It took a few nights - maybe an hour and a half total the first night (not full on screaming the whole time though, it was more stopping and starting) but by the 3rd night it was 10 minutes and after that he was great and I began to feel like a human being again.

I also agree with the poster who advised putting them to bed as soon as you see the first sign of tiredness - for me this was always about an hour and a quarter after they woke up, so maybe start looking closely from about an hour and whip her straight into bed as soon as she looks tired.

FWIW my DS is now 7 and still doesn't need all that much sleep so I think it is partly a temperament thing. And he is a lovely bright alert boy :) so do have faith that it won't always be like this!

Your family sound like half the reason for your stress levels! Just give her what she wants. honestly, Ds2 was like this, but (luckily?) my family are not interested much, so I was left to my own devices - he slept in my bed (in his moses basket because I'm a heavy sleeper), he got slinged aorund whenever he was whingy, he got put to bed when I went to bed, and either slept on me or on a pile of cushions next to me, and he did not get spoilt because of any of it. It just kept him happy.

you know how they say "Happy mummy, happy baby!"?

It works in reverse too. happy baby, happy mummy. make your baby happy, anfd your life will be so much easier.

If it's any comfort, when they are 2.5 years old, you would be hard pressed to tell a beaten, neglected toddler from a spoilt pampered toddler, from a perfectly parented toddler, because they ALL act like they are overindulged-yet-daily-whipped.

Winnie Thank you for posting your routine. I think one of her big problems is that she is only napping for 30 minutes (sometimes only 20 minutes) so she is not waking up refreshed. Also she has used so much energy crying prior to sleep that she must be exhausted.

ps meant to say when you go in to stroke etc you leave them in the cot, don't pick them up or even make eye contact really and definitely don't feed them again. Though I think if the whole thing went on and on too long I would stop again after 2 hours and just pretend they had had a sleep and give a feed, a play and then start the sleep thing again.

Exactly newmum - the 2 adults sleep together yet the baby who is the most vulnerable has to learn to sleep alone!

Just ignore your family - if she's a high-needs baby, it's not because of anything you are doing. She'd be exactly the same if you'd had a strict routine and barely held her from day one. This is such a short time when you look back - I know it seems to be an age now!

How can you spoil a child with love anyway? You've been constantly there for her when she's been in the womb, and babies don't magically become conscious the moment they are born. It's the least you can do to help the transition be a little smoother for her :)

Another sling is a good idea. I had a stretchy wrap and I loved it. If you want any help choosing there is a good slings & carriers board on mumsnet.

Also - if she has been like this since birth, have you thought about cranial osteopathy? I know loads of people who have done this and found it really helped.

"don't pick them up or even make eye contact really"

the baby is four months, not four years, don't be so bloody cruel

Seriously Weta bedtime stories, solids & graphs for a 4 month old?

Can i also second the idea of a classic 4m sleep regression?

Change what you are doing, babies change all the time in the 1st year, what worked like a charm last week, is doing zip this week.

I found the MOBY sling wrap to be an absolute godsend, and my DS and I went for a longish walk- 20 minutes (rain or shine) at about 7ish and then he would fall asleep, then transfer into the moses basket. This worked for a while, soon he learned to self settle a bit better.

I would try and disregard what the books say, sounds like you have a more wakeful baby, who might not need the 16 hours of sleep the books say. Maybe try3/4 short day time naps and then a slightly later bed time?

I feel your pain, we have all been there.

Oh and CC- not yet, far too young.