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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

or are UP parents really nuts?

684 replies

FunnysInTheGarden · 30/04/2011 22:33

I mean talk about making all your lives difficult....

Am ready BTW for the UP parents cries of dissent [cgrin]

OP posts:
squeakytoy · 01/05/2011 00:22

children are people too, though squeaky

no no no no, see thats where I completely disagree

Children are children. full stop. they need boundaries, they need rules, they need discipline, and they need authority. For example a three year old is nowhere near being an adult in training. If a child gets told off, or sent out of the room for being naughty, they dont automatically think they are unloved. They may for a few moments feel upset, that is a normal healthy reaction. They then realise that they would rather behave, and do what their parent is telling them to do, and not get punished. They learn to behave. They dont grow up harbouring bitter resentment and feeling that their parents were cruel monsters who didnt love them. Normal children grow up knowing that they got told off because they had parents who did care and who they respect.

DitaVonCheese · 01/05/2011 00:23

Why does everyone think UP involves no rules? Confused

DD says please and thank you and is beautifully polite - most of the time.

If she hit another child (which is very very rare, even when she's been hit first) then I would remove her and tell her it wasn't a nice thing to do. Same if she was drawing on walls. You can tell a child not to do something without giving them a random punishment for it.

baskingseals · 01/05/2011 00:23

btw i really honestly do NOT care if my child likes me. for gods sake. i care that they can accept themselves for who they are, respect other people for who they are and navigate the society we live in with confidence.

bejeezus · 01/05/2011 00:24

yesterday-but it isnt 'an approach' - everyone is doing it?

thisisyesterday · 01/05/2011 00:25

i don't think everyone is doing it

squeakytoy · 01/05/2011 00:26

If she hit another child (which is very very rare, even when she's been hit first) then I would remove her and tell her it wasn't a nice thing to do. Same if she was drawing on walls. You can tell a child not to do something without giving them a random punishment for it.

But they have done it. What happens if they do it again? Do you just say "I told you before, that isnt nice"???

baskingseals · 01/05/2011 00:27

squeaky - what are they then?
labradors?

colditz · 01/05/2011 00:28

So how do you handle undesirable behavior, from an UP perspective, if you have a child who won't engage unless forced?

MillyR · 01/05/2011 00:28

Surely if your child hit another child, you explained to them why it was wrong, and they hit the child again, you would leave the area with them, or make them leave the area if you were responsible for the other child.

But the reason they leave is for the protection of the other child; the leaving or being sent out is not a punishment. To make it about punishing them rather than making it about the feelings of the other child seems like a dubious road to go down.

MillyR · 01/05/2011 00:30

I should make it clear I know nothing about UP parenting, and am just posting from my own perspective.

baskingseals · 01/05/2011 00:30

exactly millyr

Laquitar · 01/05/2011 00:31

I think is the word 'practice' that i dont like. 'i practice UP' makes it sound like you follow a religion. My parents always gave reasons-aswell as punishments and rewards-and they were very good at talking about feelings and emotions. They haven't read the book and they didn't have a name for their 'style'. As Milly said it is like the BLW.

Morloth · 01/05/2011 00:32

Of all the parents I know, every single one of them explains why not to do something usually along with a consequence if the behaviour continues for most people it is just called 'parenting'.

I don't care if people want to have a special name for what they are doing, but it isn't new and it isn't all that different to standard parenting IME.

As I said, whatever floats your boat, I don't think it makes that much difference in the long run.

baskingseals · 01/05/2011 00:33

laquitar i don't practice anything.
really i don't

bejeezus · 01/05/2011 00:33

lol Morloth - can I reserve a copy?

DaisyLovesMetronidazole · 01/05/2011 00:37

I read the book. It wasn't for me.

I reward and punish.

Others can do what they like.

The only mother I really did disapprove of was one who smiled on indulgently as her dd hit mine for no reason.

GitAwfMayLend · 01/05/2011 00:37

I raised dd pretty much like this, and had never heard of UP or read the book.

I was very lucky with her, she was born in a good mood and was responsive to explanations. Plus didn't want to be a shouty mother as that is how I had been raised. Was easy to raise her with a 'I would prefer you didn't do that darling' as she listened. As I say though it was easy due to her intrinsic character, if she had been a strong willed NO! type child perhaps I would have had a different approach. Plus is easy with an only child I imagine, must be a lot more difficult to do this when you have a couple of kids.

She is 15 now and still very good company, doesn't give any trouble. Probablu more luck than judgement though.

Laquitar · 01/05/2011 00:38

(Sorry, was Morloth who mentioned BLW, not Milly)

BertieBotts · 01/05/2011 00:40

Laquitar - of course people use a range of techniques - nothing on the UP thread couldn't be used alongside other techniques, it's just another option. I think it's good if people want to mix and match :)

Squeaky - people have already said several times that preparing children for adulthood does not mean treating them like mini adults.

Maryz - it sounds like the book you were given was more about philosophy and less about how to implement it. Letting them make decisions doesn't mean you forfeit veto power over those decisions, however old they are, you are older and wiser - sometimes you have to use the knowledge you have to protect them. It depends what the outcome of their decision is likely to be though, you can protect them too much. Consequences happen anyway - if you don't brush your teeth, your breath smells which might mean you get teased at school, and you get an unpleasant feeling and taste in your mouth. You might decide though as an adult that if this natural consequence isn't making a difference or that it's not age appropriate, that the teeth need to be cleaned so they are going to be cleaned even if you won't do them yourself. Coming in late for a curfew means the curfew system isn't working, so we need a different system to keep you safe. So we find out why it isn't working - if it's just that it's an inconvenient time then perhaps we can negotiate a better time for everyone. Or perhaps it's non-negotiable, in which case, text reminders if it's a forgetting issue, or perhaps it turns out they can't be trusted with the responsibility of a curfew, so you sort out how they are getting home beforehand by picking them up or getting the friend's parent to drop them back (at 12-15 I'm guessing it will be parents) or booking a taxi in advance, if this isn't possible or they are managing to get around this then perhaps that's the time to decide you aren't responsible to be allowed out at night at all.

I know these things all sound like punishments, but that's a big misconception, that you can't do anything that even looks like a punishment in case it upsets the child. But no, in some cases it's necessary to do something which will upset them, for their own safety or wellbeing. The difference is that whatever you're doing has a direct result to achieving the desired outcome, so e.g. keeping them in instead of letting them out keeps them safe, whereas cutting pocket money or grounding them from another activity has no direct effect on their safety, which is the problem.

MollieO - not punishing/telling off does not mean not disciplining. To discipline = to teach. If you show them that paper is for drawing on, not walls, they seem to get the idea pretty quickly. If the behaviour persisted and they were old enough to understand then I'd probably progress to the lesson that writing doesn't come off walls easily, at any age, you can decide that they need supervision when using pens. When older I probably wouldn't correct spelling or grammar unless asked. (Assuming this is a separate issue)

GitAwfMayLend · 01/05/2011 00:42

Oh I wish BLW was around 15 years ago.

Weeks of trying to interest a baby in carrot puree. Wish I had just left it for a few weeks and let her chew on stuff at 6 months.

Can't ever imagine not co sleeping, however again circumstance made it easy, I was a single mother so there was plenty of room in the bed for years. Would do it again if I had another baby, cannot see the point of cots tbh.

BertieBotts · 01/05/2011 00:42

Oh blimey, massive xpost, sorry.

pirateparty · 01/05/2011 00:46

Not heard of UP before but sounds like what we do mostly with ds - 2.5 yrs. He is a sunny little soul though and I think that makes it easier. However I have resorted to a sticker chart for teeth cleaning which is very unUP I can see and actually dh and I have talked about how although it works it makes us feel uncomfortable. I will go and read about it, but out of interest how would people here who UP manage a child who refuses to have his teeth cleaned despite lots of talking about it?

BertieBotts · 01/05/2011 00:47

Bejeezus - I totally agree which is why I think it's best to mix and match with whatever suits you. I just found that for us, the more I looked for solutions which didn't involve punishments/rewards, the more pointless they seemed, so we kind of gravitated away from that. I think you can absolutely use UP techniques alongside more traditional behaviourist methods.

tabulahrasa · 01/05/2011 00:48

So what do you do if it's something they do at home?

When DD was about 2 she decided that her favourite game was poking the dog in the eyes, while shouting eyes at him.

She did it everytime she spotted him.

So when you've told the toddler that it's not nice and that she's hurting the dog, taken her away from him, but she does it again and again, what do you do after that?

MillyR · 01/05/2011 00:49

I think sticker charts serve as a kind of reminder. They are like a pictorial child version of adults writing lists and ticking items off.

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