or are UP parents really nuts?

[FunnysInTheGarden]

I mean talk about making all your lives difficult....

Am ready BTW for the UP parents cries of dissent [cgrin]

[squeakytoy]

there is quite a lot wrong with a child behaving in order to please his parents.

Could you elaborate on that please? I can not see what is wrong with it at all.

s/he needs to behave in a way that is acceptable to him/herself, and others.

What a child feels is acceptable is not always the best way though. A child is not capable of making a balanced judgement in most situations. The priority should be what the parent feels is acceptable, not the child.

[baskingseals]

maryz i don't have a teenager. my eldest child is 9.

how old was your child when you started UP?

[constantlywrong]

YABU.

[baskingseals]

mollieo they are usually very small when they draw on walls, so they can't write. more scribble.

squeaky, yes i agree i know more about the world than my children do. but i want them to behave or be polite or whatever it is, not because that's what i want, but because they want to.

[baskingseals]

sorry, also to add, children are surprisingly capable of making the right decisions and ensuring fair outcomes for all, if you let them get on with it, and resist the urge to interfere.

[MillyR]

I have never heard of UP before, but it sounds like the way a lot of people bring up their children. I don't see how children can learn moral reasoning and learn how to make appropriate decisions if their parent's response to conflicts isn't based on explaining why they want the child to behave in certain ways and the child then explains their perspective on it.

If you don't go through that process you are going to need someone giving you rules to follow forever, and there is no rule book for life. It is all very well saying the government has laws and work has rules, but in most of life and at work you are expected to interpret things based on your own judgement. You have to do something really wrong to break the law, and you have to have a very low level job to rely mostly on a set of rules.

I suspect most parents use a range of techniques.

[lecce]

there is quite a lot wrong with a child behaving in order to please his parents.

Could you elaborate on that please? I can not see what is wrong with it at all.

As you have stated, the whole point of bringing up children is to prepare them for adulthood, so very early on you have to start helping them to make decisions and choices. I know several people who have never moved on from trying to please their parents and it's not pretty. Obviously, I'm not saying that this is what happens to everyone who doesn't do UP, but it's one of the reasons it made such sense to me when I read the book.

[Laquitar]

Tbh i haven't met any parents who don't talk to their dcs, don't try to listen at them, don't explain to them right and wrong etc. Why has to be a 'parenting style'?

[baskingseals]

maryz i agree with you. i think the most effective parenting 'method' is the one you believe in and feel confident about.

it's like Blake says 'some were born to sweet delight, and some were born to endless night'

[Laquitar]

sorry xpost with Milly

[baskingseals]

there doesn't need to be a parenting style.

sometimes though it is nice to know that you are not alone in a sea of contented,stickerbook, sit down like a good boy, say please and cry yourself to sleep type parenting, especially when you suspect they are all thinking how WRONG you are, for sleeping with your baby, and jumping naked in puddles.

[baskingseals]

not me naked i hasten to add , wouldn't inflict that on the world

[squeakytoy]

Even in my 30's I wanted to please my mum though. Not because I felt she wouldnt love me if I didnt, and it didnt mean doing anything that I didnt want to do, but because she was my mum, and I knew she was proud of me, and I wouldnt have wanted to do things that she wouldnt have liked.

I dont see that as being wrong. My husband is 50 this year and he still likes to keep his mum happy too.

It is not negative behaviour, or damaged behaviour, it is healthy respect for your parents.

I agree that a major part of rearing a child is to prepare them for adulthood, but I would also say that you can not expect a child to react like an adult nor behave in the way an adult would, and whilst some children are very easy going, compliant and dont try to overstep boundaries, there are plenty that do, and they need stricter discipline, not an in depth discussion as to why they think they did what they did... children have to know that there are rules, they will get told off if they misbehave, and they will be punished if they repeat the bad behaviour.

[Laquitar]

But there are not only two opposite 'cults'. Most parents i know do a combination of techniques that you adjust according to age, situations, lifestyle, family set up, location, number of dcs etc....

[baskingseals]

children are people too, though squeaky.

put yourself in their shoes.

[bejeezus]

I dont know much about UP- only what I have read here.

Umm...what I am not liking much, is the underlying vibe- that if you dont embrace UP 'techniques', your children will not be learning to make their own/good decisions, develop a moral compass and will not know thta they are unconditionally loved.

Doesnt everyone explain to their kids why behaviours/ actions are unacceptable and when they are, and why rules exist and where they exist etc etc???--thats just part of parenting. I pretty sure that most parents will be using this approach along with rewards and punishments?

I do take issue, i think, with it being labelled with a name so that people can sell books about it--its just a natural kind of intrinsic part of parenting surely

[colditz]

You can jump naked in puddles AND insist on Please and Thank you.

Being in charge of your child's life doesn't mean stripping all the fun from it. If I did UP with ds1 he would play computer games for 17 hours a day and not drink any fluid. He doesn't care about the natural consequences.

BECAUSE I restrict the ocmputer and say "HAve a whole cup of water or you're not going out" - we go to the park, go swimming, visit friends.

If I wasn't in charge, he wouldn't even get dressed. No pants needed to play computers, you see.

UP seems to work well with communicative and reasonable children. I think I would have quite liked to have been an UP. Ds1 needs a more authoritative approach though, and it would be neglectful not to adjust my parenting style to my child just because I don't like the idea of being disliked for a few minutes a day.

[Morloth]

Whatever floats your boat.

I do find it amusing (like the BLW thing) that someone has written a book about what most parents over the years have done a bit of anyway, whacked a name on it and made a fortune. And people seem to believe they are following a whole new concept.

I think I shall write a book called 'Do what you are bloody told, A parent's guide'.

Most 'good' parents do a bit of everything along with a shitload of 'making it up as I go along'.

The vast majority of kids turn out fine.

[DitaVonCheese]

I definitely feel as though my parents love me more when I do things which they approve of. It has been the bane of my adult life. They don't approve, for example, of me not being a lawyer or co-sleeping or still breastfeeding a toddler. It makes things a lot harder, means I'm constantly conflicted, and also means I talk to them a lot less than I would otherwise. Oh, and I whine constantly to DH as well

We kind of UP DD, who is 2.5. Seems to be going okay so far - have no need for the naughty step and the staff at her pre-school are always commenting on how well-behaved she is. I do think nature probably has more effect than nurture though.

[thisisyesterday]

but i think the labelling comes, as BS says from people who share a common way of doing things and wanting to talk about it

AK wrote the book presumably because he feels very strongly that this way of doing things is good, and of course those parents who like his approach or the approach he talks about rather, want to talk about it and it makes it easier if it has a name!

[thisisyesterday]

UP is not about natural consequences
and it is not about letting your children do whatever they want

[bejeezus]

Sorry - yes- just what Laquitar and Milly say- they say it better

and most kids grow up alright anyway...regardless of what particular 'method' is used

Maryz
So my conclusion (after 17 years as a parent, and from watching loads of different families) is that it often doesn't make much difference how you bring them up discipline/rules wise. The pleasant ones turn into pleasant teenagers. The more challenging ones turn into challenging teenagers.

my dad says this all the time whilst shaking his head

[baskingseals]

yes colditz you can.
you can do whatever you want. they are your children.

i do not practise UP every minute of every day.
i parent instinctively, but a lot of how i parent is reflected in UP, i only read the book about 6 mths ago, but have been a parent for 9yrs.

i would not allow my ds to stay on the computer all day.
i am the grown up - i know more about how the world works than he does. but i would allow him to tell me how pissed off he was that he couldn't, i wouldn't deny his feelings.

[MillyR]

I think with new parents, there are some aspects you have firm ideas about, and feel confident in carrying through. I co-slept with DD until she was 3. I new other parents who were happy to have their baby in a cot straight away and it worked for them. Other parents tried all manner of things including controlled crying because they couldn't find a way to get a decent nights sleep. I don't think other parents really judged them - we were mostly just hoping they found a solution that worked for them.

And although I haven't got to the teenage years yet (DS 13 next month), I think that is the way that people bring up children - they just find what works for them. I think it must be rather different in the teen years, because teens are attempting to find their own identity and find out what will make them happy, and that might be at odds with what the parents approve of. But the teenager might actually be right. You only have to look at MN to see there are parents who are vehemently against marriage, or against single parents, or SAHMS, or WOHM, or who don't like immigrants, or who have very strong opinions about sexuality. All of these things could be quite damaging if what their child wants to do with their life is at odds with the parent's core beliefs. I do think teens need a space to work out what is best for them, and wanting to please your parents can lead to some pretty terrible consequences, repeated mistakes and wasted lives.