or are UP parents really nuts?

[FunnysInTheGarden]

I mean talk about making all your lives difficult....

Am ready BTW for the UP parents cries of dissent [cgrin]

It would sound pathetic if she ran into the road and all they could say was 'well we didn't hold her hand because she wouldn't let us'!
A common sense person would say -well she was only 14months old. How old are you?!!!!

The UP support thread is what prompted my thread. Parents trying to do the right thing and making their own lives a misery at the hands of their DC who are too young to understand 'why'.

I looked at it briefly a while ago and again just now. I force myself to sit on my hands because it is supposed to be a support group and not a discussion-but really.............!!!! What happens to common sense? 14month olds shouldn't be loose next to traffic-it isn't fair on the drivers as much as anything else.

exotic I know what you mean about sitting on your hands. But they do say it is just a support thread and they don't want any advice, so I respect that......

exotic-i was just looking at that to- it made i laff-there is a biggish discussion on how to serve food...hmm on plates individually or in bowls so everyone can help themselves...hmmm..dilemma....what to do, what to do?!

I've got one for you--what would you do if your 12 year old daughter decided she'd like to start hanging out at a crack-house after school and started dating a pimp? wouldn't you be tempted to try and weild a bit of authority even then?

Someone elses's DC is posting stones through the letter box and scratching the floor-because 'he likes it'!

They may find themselves in real difficulties by 12yrs-I dread to think of 15yrs. I read the food one!!! I have respected that it is a support thread and kept off- but 'ye gods and little fishes.....!!!
(and they most definitely think they are UP)

I haven't read the support thread, but the book makes it very clear that all parents have non-negotiable issues, and i'd have thought road safety is an obvious one of these - I always insisted that dd hold my hand near a road, and in fact I still do insist in some situations.

Any approach will attract people who misunderstand the concepts and take things to extremes (and perhaps these extreme types are more likely to seek support on internet forums while the rest of us just get on with the job!) but I'm sure there are a fair few who do this with GF techniques and the naughty step as well. You can't judge an approach to parenting by the people who fail to apply their common sense, surely? That's a bit like watching a bad driver and blaming the car!

Precisely, maryz - this is not UP or any sort of parenting. I think most people would agree that seatbelts are just common sense.

FWIW, my dd knew the term "non-negotiable" at two years old, and she was well aware that, where this concept was applied, there was no room for manoevre - and she accepted that.

I'm still confused. If the quote from the book is accurate you can't have any consequenses to the child for making the wrong decision (not even natural ones, like missing the party because we spent too long getting dressed ). When my DC were toddlers (and sometimes still at 11 and 7) you could tell them till you were blue in the face that if you stand in traffic you will get killed. They forget the next time it seems like a good idea to chase that cat, want to look at the squirrel. They might hear you and understand at the time but they don't remember it as they lack the retention ability. Plus, they don't understand mortality, so "you'll be killed and make mummy sad" means nothing to them. How DO you enforce boundaries without consequences?

I have children who search for the loopholes in every boundary I set, and constantly ask for my reasoning for every rule I set. Sometimes I just want them to stop forcing me to spend ten minutes explaining myself and just trust that I know better than they do - especially when we are late for something!

Exotic - "the UPed DC has every word listened to at home and his opinion counts. He sits on the carpet in the classroom and holds forth to the class about his 'news'-however having had 'his turn' DC2 is dying to tell them his news. DC1 wanders off, kicks the DCs next to him, grabs a toy, sings a song etc because he doesn't want to listen to DC2 who has a quiet voice. He is asked politely to stop it. He says that he doesn't 'feel like it' and all the other DCs start to roll their eyes-they are fed up with it-he spoils all sessions on the carpet."

Have you actually met my "UP" friends' DS, cos it certainly sounds like you have? I did keep a straight face when it was explained to me that the poor little darling was finding school "difficult", but only just....

Plenty like him stealth! Parents fail to realise that every DC has equal rights and they are not there to sit and admire their own DC! If they listen to him, he has to be equally polite and listen to them.

The support group seems to me to be parents who abandon natural instinct and common sense to wonder what Alfie Kohn would do! I have a very shrewd suspicion that Alfie Kohn has life very much as Alfie Kohn wants it and I doubt whether he is in in the kitchen everyday cooking 3 different meals!
I also see thathe started life as a teacher-in his own admission not a very good one-he has found himself a much more lucrative niche.

The UP support group leaves me utterly incredulous! Apparently tooth cleaning isn't worth fighting about and you should look up ways of fighting tooth decay without brushing! (I hope the adult DC is furious when they have bad teeth)
One woman had a DC who didn't like nappy changing so she covered her house in rags until they were able to use the toilet! Generally you just follow them around and do it when they are standing up.
DCs go out naked with parents following with clothes in a carrier for when they decide it is sensible to get dressed.
It is suggested that a DC is taken to the CM in pyjamas with his day clothes in a bag (because he won't get dressed)
There is a lot of whittering on about danger-DCs are supposed to work it out for themselves but some just don't get it and do the same thing over and over again!
If they are slamming doors-ask yourself if there is any good reason why they shouldn't slam doors? If it might wake the baby-move the baby!
If a 2 yr old is throwing a brick ask him why he threw the brick, was he angry, how could he have handled the anger better? (a 2 yr old )
(this was after much brick throwing and called 'instigating a meeting' with the 2 yr old!)
Someone is bfing a 14 month old every 2 hours through the night.
One DC didn't wash for 8 weeks!
I lost the will to live after reading advice on what to do if they won't wear clothes and it is snowing outside, they want to go barefoot in the park and there is broken glass, what to do if they run off in shops (hire a teenager to run after them and make it a game-I kid you not!!!) and if I am ever on a bus and a mother says loudly'what a pity someone is sitting in your favourite seat-where shall we sit today?' that I won't move an inch! I may even smile and say-'it is a good seat-my favourite too'!

And people ask what I dislike about UP?-I rest my case.
(I have to say the the person who mentioned the rags on the floor instead of nappies had vetoed it because she had cream carpets!)
I can't for a minute image that Alfie Kohn understands what a monster he has unleashed with 'common sense'.

Well no one answered my question! Is that because no one likes to admit that in some cases UP just doesn't cut it? :) just to add to your list exotic (some I mentioned earlier) my experience is a parent sitting for 30 mins - 1 hr in the car until her dc was prepared to get into the car seat, her dc ripping up my DCs picture while smiling about it, repeatedly knocking my DS over in the garden, pushing him across the room, ripping up books while the parent looks on, parent allowing her dc to hold my DS even though he was squirming and I had repeatedly said that he didn't want to be held. I have actually stepped in on several occasions which I'm sure the parent isn't too pleased about but there's only so much you can take! Parent doesn't take her DC to any groups where the child would have to follow instructions and go along with the group. I really wonder what this child is going to turn out like! Is she metaphorically killing the child with kindness?

Some of the ideas about trying to find out if there is a reason for bad behaviour makes sense - in some circumstances. Ditto explaining why some things are not allowed. I haven't heard of UP before but I did find the book "how to talk do kids will listen.." helpful with my 4.

But I actually think too many children are not brought up to think of others. This is something that doesn't need encouraging. As a society, it only really works if people do think of the consequences of their behaviour on other people - often strangers or people we don't know well.

I also think it is important for children to realise that they won't always be treated fairly. I remember telling one of my boys when he complained about a teacher who I think unfairly lost his temper - yes the teacher shouldn't have said that to you, but maybe he was having a bad day and said things he didn't mean, just like you did on Monday when you were having a bad day.

I think children need to realise in otherwords that nobody behaves rationally all of the time and that we all have to cut each other a bit of slack.

I also hate where I see parents who won't shout or tell off their children to stop them doing things, but instead use emotional manipulation to get children to do things. I think this can be really damaging. I am not saying though that UP parents do this. But things like, please don't do that it makes mummy so sad and she will start to cry, really anger me.

Otherside My daughter can tell me negative things as much as she likes. However, she needs to be solution oriented. If she goes into a workplace and whines about how things aren't going her way, and doesn't come up wiht solutions, she'll never succeed. She'll be like the many, many people you work with who everyone despises because they're so damned miserable all the time.

Whining is a habit, as is positive thinking. For years we have encouraged dd to think of solutions when a problem occurs. The result is that at 10 she's generally self sufficient and can think through problems on her own.

She complains about something. I accept her feelings about it (very UP as I understand it) then I ask her what she thinks the solution is (from How to Talk To Your Children). If she can't think of one, I ask her if she wants me to implement a ludicrous solution of my choice. She laughs. I say well stop moaning, because I'm tired of it now. Either think of a solution or you have to put up with it. That's life. That's what you need to get on in the world.

Empathy with your child is not the exclusive domain of the UP parent. My dd is supremely confident about her body, whilst her peers worry about their weight and body shape; she's happy to play with anyone in the class, including the kids that struggle with social situations; she's invited for sleepovers frequently by a variety of parents and is always given back with a smile and 'she can come here and stay anytime'. She's academically in the top percent at school and, more importantly to us, she's socially adept.

I've read the books on occasion, when recommended to do so by others. I've always found that my instincts work well enough with parenting and thanks, but I'm quite happy with my unique, unbookish, parenting methods. You want to UP, go ahead. You've got as much chance of screwing up your kids as I've got of screwing up mine cos it's just parenting.

The ideas are fine IMO and having read most of the OK to smack thread (I don't think it is)I think that some people would benefit from reading about a different approach.
It is what people do with the ideas that leave me speechless!
LeQueen can get at least 3 chapters for her book from that thread alone-basic safety, routine basics and out and about in the community.
Life is not fair-a constant statement to my DCs, and if they come across a UPed DC life will definitely not be fair for them if they hang around 15 minutes negotiating where to cross a road (it makes you laugh-in that case younger brother was amusing himself picking poisonous berries while mother and sister came to an agreement (a third place that neither of them had chosen!)
It appears to me that mother is the doormat. In the case of won't wear shoes where there is broken glass they played mind the ants with DC going slowly and picking up his feet while mother was on hands and knees doing a mine sweep of the area!) You feel a 3rd person ought to have been there to say 'is this really fair on your mother? You are spoiling her afternoon?'

If she is socially adept, she will be a happy DC and adult, huffy. It is one of the best things you can give your DC. Any normal, well adjusted DC will start to roll their eyes at those arguing the toss about trivial matters-especially once they get to about 5yrs.

I agree with you huffy. If you accept their feelings then it is fine to put a limit on moaning and whinging. With lots of things we either need to accept it or change it.

Heaven preserve me from moaners and whingers...be they adults or children.

Yes, we all have problems and frustrations...but we need from an early age to be able to filter which are just grumbles and which are serious. I have indegestion versus I have broken my arm.

We also need to be able to solve as many problems as we can for ourselves...and that means stopping whinging and analysing. The two are extremely difficult to do at the same time because they use different parts of the brain.

Therefore, I think it's imperative that I help my children achieve the skills to stop moaning and consider solutions.

Thank you for your reply holyShmoley :)

I think the main issue is that she is not necessarily in a 'mood' as such - that seems to be her personality! She seems to get genuine enjoyment from making other children upset, although in my children's case they are mainly just bewildered by the whole thing!

I think your methods of dealing with the picture and the pre-emptive action approach would be great. The parent I am talking about just seems to watch and let it happen and then says 'oh dear, now that wasn't a very nice thing to do was it?' and that's it! On one occasion she actually said "oh dear, I can see where this is going' as her DC starting trying to rip parts out of DS's new book without trying to intervene! At that point I stepped in and politely informed her that we don't rip up books in this house and removed it from her reach. Cue tantrum because she wasn't allowed to rip it up! I don't think she has a single intact book in her own collection and her mum has frequently had to replace library books. I just think there is a huge lack of respect for other people and their property.

I do use time outs from time to time but more to give both boys a bit of space away from each other and time to cool down. Mainly we do talk about things or just move quietly along from the issue without making a fuss (distraction I suppose) but I am always very observant in other people's houses and will step in if I see things happening - even if it's just a quick reminder about being gentle with other children/their things etc...I do think there is a happy medium and in some cases, a strictly UP approach may not work. All children are different and have different personalities - I don't think there is any 'one-size-fits-all-out-of-the-box(or book!) parenting method.

I don't think that UP allows for the fact that DCs can manipulate the system and are quite adept at having mother exactly where they want her!

I find it amusing to watch DCs when they are about without mother. One 5yr old I know used to do a wonderful, dramatic stomp off and sit down with his head in his hands (when things didn't suit) which obviously worked with his mother- who would then discuss 'his issues'. With his mother out of the way, he used to peep out and see that no one was remotely bothered and get up and join in again!

Family life is the best preparation for real life. By copying and interacting they learn how to get on with others. They learn to negotiate, be fair, cope with anger,frustration, disappointment, high excitement etc, read moods, respect other people's property, do things they don't want to do, cope with boredom, know that different people have different rules and lots more that don't immediately spring to mind. They don't have to be actively 'taught' they just absorb it.
I don't see how they can do this if the parents smooth the way in all situations, avoid boredom and 'boring' routines, don't enforce safety, allow books to be torn, expect people to move seats in buses and don't make the DC understand fundemental principles such as 'if you want to be listened to, you listen to others'.
Why should the parents be doormats in the first place? It isn't surprising that adult DCs turn out selfish-they have never understood that the parents have rights too!
I fail to see how you feel secure as a 2 yr old if your mother takes you out naked in the winter with clothes in a carrier bag, lets you wander off on a busy beach on the understanding that you will keep your eye on her and come back in your own time (much wailing that this didn't happen!)

I was in a post office yesterday with a huge queue. It was in a corner of a supermarket. A man had just got to near the front and his 2/3 yr old was understandably bored. He ducked under the barrier and hovered for a while with the father saying 'come back' and then he shot around the corner into the supermarket and out of sight. The father tried to see but couldn't-he was hesitating -obviously wondering if he would come back-as we all were. The teenage boy behind him took the sensible decision and said he would keep his place if he went and got him! I then got my turn so didn't see the outcome-the UP response would have been interesting!