or are UP parents really nuts?

[FunnysInTheGarden]

I mean talk about making all your lives difficult....

Am ready BTW for the UP parents cries of dissent [cgrin]

Ooops too slow. Post before last.

I agree LeQ . DS is everything to me as well as the most gorgeous and brilliant boy to ever draw breath , but I accept that he is not this to other adults, nor would I expect him to be. (Except my mother, who is nigh obsessed with the poor child.) And, well, I don't like rude children, so I'd prefer that he wasn't one.

leQueen You've just said almost the same words as I said to my lovely daughter this evening. She was moaning about her teacher (who isn't the best tbh) on the way home tonight, and I said, "so what do you want me to do about it then? Go in a see the teacher and tell her she's being unfair to poor little huffygirl? cos that's gonna happen! If you can't say something constructive or think of a solution, stop whining now because it's getting boring and I dont' want to hear it any more."

I know...that was very un UP of me, but I can't bear whinging and whining about things you can't do anything about and that's one of my no tolerance areas.

Later, at dinner, we discussed a child whose parents are allowing him to be excused from lessons because he 'can't cope' with the teacher. DD said she wasn't fond of her teacher, but she'd rather stay in class and learn what she can than spend half her lessons out of the class.

Not as bad as a mother I know who moved schools everytime her DC 'fell out' with the teacher-after 4 schools they were back where they started! I think it said more about the mother than the schools!

"I have tutored HE kids in the past"

Always raises a smile to hear a lecture on education from a teacher with such an ahem unorthodox grasp of spelling and grammar.

(totally below the belt, I know, just couldn't resist it )

Seriously though, I don't disagree.

It's my job to steer my child to take her place in the world. To be intrinsically motivated, think ethically. To be considerate of others and above all enjoy what time she has on earth.

I don't like entitled adults (or children), whingers or narcissists either. I also do not tolerate them.

If you cannot grasp that you can help a child achieve this goal without rewards and punishments or using other behaviourist techniques then there is no point in continuing the discussion.

"then there is no point in continuing the discussion".

These threads always end with this sentence.

It strikes me that the difference between 'conventional' and 'unconditional' parenting is like the difference between Orwell's 1984 and Huxley's Brave New World.

They're both totalitarian regimes; but where one achieves its goals by coercion, in the other the subjects are expected to internalise the regime's morality until they like it and no coercion is necessary.

Children (by which I mean anybody under 18) are the most fantastic, fascinating, stimulating, funny, enjoyable, rewarding and motivational companions any adult could wish to have, whether they 'belong' to that adult or not ... however, what UP ignores is that only through (dare I say it) SUBORDINATION do they have the appropriate conditions to learn all that they need to in order to be fully integrated into and accepted by any society. I do not believe that it is fair, and would even contend that it is verging on abusive behaviour, to put the onus of self-determination onto a child. Most honest professionals will tell you that children who have never been shown any boundaries have been set up by their (UPs) to fail ... how fucking tragic / misguided ... . After 20 years in teaching, I know that the UPd brothers aged 13 & 15 from a seriously loaded home who turned up stoned off their faces at 8.30 am because Mummy said they could/indulged with them were even more neglected/abused than the relatively materially poor ones who at least receive love in the form of consistency, boundaries and aspiration. Their faces will always haunt me :(

But albertcamus, your logic falls down because UP is not about an absence of boundaries. My parents followed a UP style, long before it had a name. There was always consistency, we had very clear boundaries and shedloads of aspiration. But they also treated us with respect and avoided the use of bribery or punishment. Why do you suppose that these are incompatible?

As for lequeen's suggestion that parents who avoid bribery and punishment are all somehow insecure little wimps who need a manual because they lack confidence...well, thank you for the laugh! If you are entirely confident in your own choices as a parent, I wonder why you would feel the need to denigrate and belittle those who have a different approach?

It has been said much more eloquently by others on this thread, but for the last time, UP is not about never saying "no", it's not about an absence of boundaries and it's not about letting children behave like little brats. Parents who fail to teach their children how to behave appropriately in public are not practising UP, they are merely failing to parent properly.

So magic if I am neither 'bribed' in my workplace by remuneration, promotion, recognition etc., nor 'punished' if I transgress which, in my case, would mean endangering a child or behaving inappropriately, should I be grateful to my 'Unconditional Employer' ? I seriously struggle with what seems to me the chasm between UP utopia and the big, bad real world out there ...

Is it only me who can't be arsed with all that and just think use your common sense and your instincts when raising a child???????

Who said having kids had to be so fucking hard...people make things much harder then they need to be...kids have survived for years without all this crap!!!!

Its like people are scared to parent their children and want their kids to parent themselves....I suppose then when they grow up to be screwed up individuals their "parents" can say it's not their fault!!!!!!

I have been finding it hard to understand what UPers actually think non-UPers do; when they talk about empathising with your child/ talking to them/ really trying to understand their feelings/ only saying no when you have to/ choosing your battles etc etc- as if non-UPers have their kids on the naughty step the whole time...

and this from Holy Schmoley;
do you also not rate Happiness as a worthwhile aspiration for your kids?
yee gods!!---so non-UPed kids are now not able to acheive happiness????

BUT, I think this may be the key;

each of us think we are 'good enough', and especially among the mothers i know that is actually quite rare.

I think your take on all of this probably is largely influenced by the area you live in and the people around you? I dont live in a WASP area where parents pit their kids and their acheivements against each other. We have a really diverse community where people are doing the best they can- and its more about co-operation than competition

It has been said much more eloquently by others on this thread, but for the last time, UP is not about never saying "no", it's not about an absence of boundaries and it's not about letting children behave like little brats. Parents who fail to teach their children how to behave appropriately in public are not practising UP, they are merely failing to parent properly.

Unfortunately the worst cases that you see on public display, while out shopping, dining out, on the beach etc think they are following UP and that is what gets it a bad name.
Parenting isn't a career, it is living together and bringing up your DC to be an emotionally stable, fully functioning adult. I like the quote where you need to give children 2 things 'roots and wings'- and the roots are love and security-you don't give a DC security if you are 33yrs and you expect them to be at the same level of maturity at 3 yrs old! There are times where you use your knowledge and experience.

A good enough mother is fine. Would any of you really want 'the perfect mother' yourself (if there was such a thing)-I think she would be hell to live with. (like a Stepford Wife!)

Bejeezus, for example, I would never dream of saying things like "If you can't say something constructive or think of a solution, stop whining now because it's getting boring and I dont' want to hear it any more." to one of my children.

When I read things like that, I think that some parents don't show much empathy towards their children.

I felt I was expected to keep unpleasant feelings to myself when I was a child. I think it is healthier to let them out rather than bottle them up so I empathise as much as possible with a child who is upset about something no matter how trivial it seems to me from my adult perspective. Usually after a good moan they find a solution or reach a state of acceptance about the situation.

Also, you see a lot of threads on MN along the lines of 'what punishment is appropriate for such and such behaviour with suggestions like removing privileges, cancelling outings etc?' so I think some parents actively seek to punish their children.

But if you see them out shopping or on the beach, how the heck do you know that they think they're following UP?

Of course I don't for sure magicmummy-but it is a pretty good guess if they are endlessly discussing something, in a wet sort of way, rather than setting reasonable boundries.

I just took a look on the UP support thread and so you know full well they are UP- and there is a case in point. A very young DC won't hold hands when walking along a busy road and so they don't firmly grasp her hand and tell her she can go on her own when they get away from traffic! They are keeping between her and the road-I just hope for all their sakes that she doesn't make a quick dive between their legs!
This DC is 14months old and she is calling the shots because 'she won't hold hands'. She is too young to understand the reasons-it is a clear case of telling her and then either holding her hand or carrying her but this 'might upset her'