or are UP parents really nuts?

[FunnysInTheGarden]

I mean talk about making all your lives difficult....

Am ready BTW for the UP parents cries of dissent [cgrin]

yeah --we love bedtime routine here too

No Idea!
I think I might have been a bit UP in my approach when they were little ie no smacking,shouting or bribing.However I didnt debate the small stuff either so
I have read(quickly) some of the online stuff and the only bit I dont get -it was posted up thread is the bit about consequences -which I think are a natural effect of our behaviour ie your choices have consequences and from these consequences you learn and may choose (or not) to moderate your behaviour in the future.

Mine were very much outdoors when little -tired them out ! so often there was a fair bit of mud to scrub off but mostly it was a lovely end to the day.
I always have a bath before bed and so do the DC even now they are teens so its a bit of a bunfight for the hotwater.

Ok off the find the other thread !

Why is it I can't ignore a UP thread :)

I too parent without rewards or punishments. It's not at the forefront of my mind that I 'do UP' it's not the way I think about it and how I bring up children and I never really discuss it with others except my husband --and on a forum. I have read the book and others of his (as well as child psych books and I also have been helped by the stalwart How to Talk..). It's not a method, it's not 'one way to do things, more a philosophy.

I can see how the label UP (or AP or co-sleeping or extended feeding -- all of which I've done or do) might make the poster seem po-faced, pompous, and wedded to a rigid way of doing things for, perhaps, the wrong reasons and blindly. However, in Britain, largely we live in a parenting world where behavourism, training and reward/praise/punishment based discipline are dominant, so it it useful to have a shorthand to describe that you may be taking a different approach.

It is the norm to view children as creatures -- irrational creatures to be trained by behaviourist techniques. It should be said that not all modern child psychologists favour behaviourism. But it still is how we largely think we should raise and educate children (oh, and although I don't dismiss HE out of hand, it's not for me, I realise I'm not trained properly and I value the social interaction of school)

Once I had my child (and had ditched the GF books I unwisely bought) I gradually realised, and was quite surprised, by how utterly rational she was. Just not in the fully formed adult sense. What she did made sense to me, even if it at times was infuriating. I found when I really put the work in communicating with her, trying to understand what drove certain behaviour, I had a happy, thriving child, and a happy family life. When I was impatient, and wanted to 'crack down'on the behaviour (and not the reason) things fell apart a bit.

A few myths. UP, or not using rewards and sanctions does not:

Create ill-mannered, chaotic and insecure children. Ineffective parenting of any stripe will help achieve that. And how all the naysayers know exactly what is going on in these so-called UP households is anyone's guess. How do they really know how these kids are parented, or that it's UP, or that there aren't other things going on? No, it's easier to say 'look at that bad behaviour and their lazy permissive parents....'

Mean children can't cope at school (and the teachers know who these poor ill-parented wild children are) Children are very emotionally sophisticated more than we give them credit for and can respond to different models of discipline, say, with GPs or at school. It is a myth that they have to have absolute consistent treatment from everyone in their lives. Besides, however you parent, that would be impossible to achieve.

That UP is about hour-long negotiations to get dressed/undressed etc. Negotiation is a large part of how to convey boundaries. But ultimately it's just communication - which we all do with our children. Much else is down to keeping dialogue going, modelling desirable behaviour, getting to the bottom of distress and anger. It is far from lazy (although apparently we are also making life difficult for ourselves? How do I square that circle?)

It's about ignoring danger or violence to others or generally letting them rule. It's not. I'm sure others following an approach like this have removed/sternly talked to/apologised for their child's behaviour.

I think the fact that so many say: "oh we can't talk about this unless you've read the book" implies a cultishness.

My father was very UP. Everything was talked about, reasoned, debated. I was very much "free" to be me - his very first words to my mother when I was born were that I didn't belong to them, I was simply on loan for a short while to be cared for, I was my own person. I was told so many times that I was loved that when I was a teenager it used to make my fucking teeth itch. I was allowed take time off school whenever I wanted if I could explain why (I went to school only 55% of my final year), my intense messiness was seen as evidence of my "creativity" and everyone was "cool" with what I wanted to do and we talked for HOURS about every little choice.

I grew up, got married, did fantastically in academic study as I had learned to be self-directed in study when I was off school, have friends. All good, yeah? BUT I really, really struggle with filing as an adult and I find the day-to-day grind of having to go to work really hard. I have also run into trouble at work because I have tried to be very "reasonable" and explain why demands are excessive (when they are, by anyone's reasonable standards - NHS) and it took me years to work out that No One Gives a Shit about the perspective of the bottom-feeders no matter how articulate and reasoned and considerate you are in your musings. I found work bewilderingly unfair at times because it was so OBVIOUS to me that some of the systems were unfair.. what I didn't get was that, well, tough luck, love. Life was never meant to be fair and there are a lot of unwritten "conditions" on the road to success.

They fuck you up, your mum and dad... no matter what they do. Yes, it's better if they're not beating you with a large stick or keeping you in a cellar, but even the very best of parents with the most well-reasoned of philosophies will find that the best of their predictions are only half accurate and that their actions with their children can have surprising and unpredictable results. All our choices are half-chance, so are everyone elses. There's so much that goes into being a human. There can be no One Way. It would make no sense.

working that is very interesting Thanks

Lastly, this is a plea.

I happen not to favour behaviourism as a parenting tool. But I do not judge those parents (the majority) who do. In some ways, it can be viewed sensible for certain situations and certain children. I don't get hot-headed about 'my way being the right way'

So I am always shocked when I come across the vituperation, scorn, derision and unfounded anecdotes about 'weird kids made that way by their liberal permissive parents'. Even that we are dong something that's Bad For Society.

It seems out of all kilter with the nuances and subtleties of what is simply a slightly different approach to discipline (ie, 'discipline' in the true sense of the word meaning 'teaching')

UP doesnot involve endless negotiations with your child - fundamental misunderstanding here

Well I never got past the introduction of the book and yet I always manage to be involved in the discussions, just based on what I've learnt from How To Talk and then various internet discussions. It's not that it's a cult thing, it's just that it's a slow burn read and read and read and slowly start to understand, then read some more but still not quite get it, read and read and then eventually you are just doing it and thinking it more often than not sort of thing. It takes time to get your head around the idea that punishments aren't necessary, especially if you've always been told they are.

I think the fact that so many say: "oh we can't talk about this unless you've read the book" implies a cultishness.

I don't necessarily think that that's what they are saying, I guess they are reacting to the misunderstanding people have made and saying 'it's well-explained in the book -- I don't have the time to type 10,000 words'. That's how I read that quote.

Oh, and working, you make an interesting point. I had a similar upbringing to you, did well academically, got into Oxford blah blah, but have had mental health problems too and have felt I didn't fit in in some ways. But many, many people feel at times that they don't fit it. It's almost universal. My father didn't fit in (perhaps because he was a manic depressive?) also and his upbringing, such as it was, was violent and brutal.

Of course it's a complex mixture of nature and nurture and however we parent the law of unintended consequences bites us on the backside. Any sane, intelligent parent knows this.

"It takes time to get your head around the idea that punishments aren't necessary, especially if you've always been told they are."

Exactly. Modern psychology has in many ways moved beyond behaviourism, but it is still the norm in child-rearing. It is pervasive and far-reaching and hard to shake off the idea that you're not doing it 'right' if you don't use sanctions.

does UP work easier if you only have 1 child and they are quite young? Anyone been through it with a larger family and children who have - say hit their teens?

PMSL here. I have decided I'm am a table tennis parent. (I go back and forth!)

I agree and practice unintentionally some UP ideas because after much failure this has worked for me. DS has though always been a compliant child so maybe that makes a difference? I like the removal from the situation technique and this works well for us. I like the principles involved in UP, and for me as a LP (DS dad not around) its important to me we have a relationship of mutual respect as neither of us get's space from the other.

Despite this I am agreeing with some points made by those who don't follow or see the benefits of UP in some of the discipline/ getting children to do as they need/ you want. I agree with some of the ways you descibe and the principles - eg the school uniform. I would ensure DS wore it whatever, he did get different white polos as his were annoying him (actually the labels were itchy) - but then its hard for me either way as DS has never questioned it or moaned/ refused to get it on.

I do think the OP IBU because shes calling UP's mad. They are not they just do things differently. If there wasn't a name attached for mainly media purposes (books/websites) you couldn't say 'X parents are Y'

Earlier on the thread I gave an example of how I dealt with a situation and why - just happened it was using an UP idea. Maryz suggested another way to deal with it - which again didn't involve punishment and in hindsight I can see how that could have worked better. And Maryz has had 3? children who are all grown up so she probably knows and definatly has had more experience than me. A lot of parenting is learning from your mistakes and from observing/ reading what works for others.

I would conclude (sounds like an essay!) that everyone should parent as they feel they want too, doing what works best for them, their DC's and family. 1 'technique' may work for DC1 and then maybe 2 and you could have DC 3 and need to change tact.

OH and btw the only thing I've ever read about raising children is MN.

otchayaniye , my father was also the product of a very violent and abusive home. When I grew older I heard terrible stories of him watching his mother scrub blood off the floor from the beatings.. this very much coloured his upbringing of me (as firstborn) in particular. I just thought it was interesting that we shared this in common..

fastedwina I think all parenting is easier with one young child.

For those who are asking if there is anyone with multiple and/or older children, try reading some of Dayna Martin's blog.

www.thesparklingmartins.blogspot.com/

I really don't understand those who object because 'it is a book'. I grew up in an abusive family and had no idea how to deal with everyday parenting stuff in a normal way (locking them in the garage obviously not an option). I knew I was not going to repeat history, but didn't know how to go about it. So when I was pregnant I researched; lots of different methods, Gina Ford, Sears and lots in between. I gradually decided on the sort of parent I wanted to be, and have modified and changed it since the DDs were born.

Some people need the books.

UP is the antitheses of what I experienced. It makes logical sense to me that I therefore have a smaller chance of inflicting ishoos similar to my own on my children. I don't have the instinct lots of you talk about and there are plenty of other mothers in my position too.

I was thinking of this thread a few hours ago when DS (almost 4) was being quite disobedient and rude. I did not have a drawn out discussion with him, I just said, "Since I know you are such a good boy normally, you must be very tired to act this way. Start listening right now or go take a nap."

He knows (from previous experience) that I will make him stay in bed for naughty behavior, so he stopped. (Shrugs) Works for us.

I've found several books very useful companions in parenting alongside all the talks I've had with other parents along the way, and my own feelings of what might work well and learning from experience.

Didn't someone say "the un-reflected life isn't worth living" or something along those lines. Thinking about it all is part of the adventure !

Children are very emotionally sophisticated more than we give them credit for and can respond to different models of discipline, say, with GPs or at school. It is a myth that they have to have absolute consistent treatment from everyone in their lives. Besides, however you parent, that would be impossible to achieve

Very true. On threads you hear the anguish of 'I UP and the school give rewards' with much wringing of hands!! It really doesn't matter one jot! The DCs cope and cope well. In fact it is very good for them to have different people and different methods and even meet people they don't like much-they will meet it all in real life and have to deal with it.

I agree with Maryz and went on a parenting course-it was really a discussion group for parents and made you really think how you dealt with issues. There was no method or right or wrong way. It sounds very similar to yours. Unfortunately the very people who would benefit most didn't go.

wow this thread has legs.......not logged on since last night and tis sooooo long have no idea what the consensus is. Suffice to say that if UP is the same as mindful parenting, don't we all do that?

UP is just what most people do anyway without a label. It wouldn't be irritating without the label, which implies that anyone who differs loves their DC conditionally.
I think they would all be fine without labels e.g. if you are carrying your baby around everywhere in a sling you are not 'wearing it'. It took me ages to realise what BLW was-another thing that people have been quietly doing for years.
HE , a sensible term, seems to have become deschooling in some circles-how you can de school a DC who has never been to school beats me!
Another one I didn't understand for ages was GF -never having had the least urge to read her.
Controlled crying is another silly term-you don't really have control-you are letting the baby cry and doing nothing about it.
Supernanny seems responsible for a lot-I assume she is the originator of 'the naughty step? Although no one has explained what the step has done to be classed naughty! If so supernanny is dealing with DCs who are unhappy and out of control and not something you should need to do when you have the DC from birth and don't need to let them get into that state in the first place.

msbuggiewinkle- I am one who 'objects to it because its a book'- thats not entirely accurate; I dont knock people for reading parenting books for guidance/advice/methods etc. What I object to is for those people to then adopt their method as superior to others (who dont feel the need to use books, but are happy to trust their instincts). You may say that UPers are not assuming superiority. But as I said earlier, for me the very name and the fundamentals of it suggests that many do...i.e. if you are not UPing then your children will think that your love for them is conditional....and comments such as the one earlier in the thread, that said something along the lines of 'the extra time it takes to UP, will be redeemed later in life by not having to visit DCs in prison' (albeit, they did say this was tongue in cheek)

I have the same attitude towards religion; I am not religious but I lead a righteous life; dont steal/lie/ treat others as you would like to be treated etc its common sense innit-i dont feel the need for organised religion/ The Book/ a place of worship. Some people have lead a much harder life/ have lost their way and I very much appreciate that they do want/need these things in their lives. But people who dont, arent leading less virtuous lives.

Its interesting that a number of posters have linked an abusive upbringing with UPing. The only person I know to have UPed (although she wouldnt have called it this- she just didnt reward or punish) did so she said because she was abused and she always thought discipline=abuse. her first ds went completely off the rails in his teenage years (and never got back on them). She does use punishment and rewards with her second (10 year age gap) as she blames the lack of discipline for loosing her ds. (I DONT btw...I agree with MaryZ about nature v nuture...and their were alot more factors in play anyway...)