or are UP parents really nuts?

[FunnysInTheGarden]

I mean talk about making all your lives difficult....

Am ready BTW for the UP parents cries of dissent [cgrin]

I find that those who UP tend to have had authoritarian parents and assume it was the norm.

Still don't really know what it is even having read some of the UP thread on parenting - still clueless.

i also wanted to say...I have no problem with UPing really...if people dont want to use rewards/punishments its not my business. I dont care how other people raise their children

interesting, exoticfruits. The only people i know in real life who up (or do some approximation of up) are those who have been brought up that way themselves - dsis and myself included.

The opposite with me magicmummy, I find that it is people who are worried about turning into their parents so they actively look for an alternative.
My parents were quite UP, before it had a label and I think that it turns sensitive, biddable, responsible DCs like me into people pleasers. The parents are so reasonable and you know it makes sense so you are forced to agree.
I think that people who were brought up that way just do it automatically without having to read a book.

One example-I remember being about 4 yrs old and my younger brother took a liking to a particular toy of mine -I didn't want him to have it.Of course the reasonable line is ,'he is very little, it won't hurt you to let him have a go' and 'if you don't make a fuss he will forget it in a very short time'.
I ended up 'being reasonable' but seething with resentment! I wanted it seized off him, however much he cried!
I still think as an adult he should have had it seized off him-he would have yelled and forgotten it! It is quite simple-grab it with the firm words, 'sorry that is exoticfruits' and then ignore the tantrum-when he is calm explain that some things are private and you have to ask permission and the person can refuse!
Plus the fact that my brother was a different DC altogether and wouldn't have seen the reasonable line if he didn't want to and wouldn't have had a moments guilt over it!

UP fastedwina is a system where you don't have any rewards or punishments or 'because I say so'. You appeal to the DC's better nature with explanations and reasons and give them choices. The underlying agenda is that they will see it your way and take the 'right' choice. Fine if you have the sort of DC who wants to please and get it right. It runs into difficulties where they couldn't give a toss about the 'right' choice-they know what they want and they are going to do it their way! It also runs into difficulties with more than one DC when they want entirely different things and you can't please them all. It also runs into difficulties when the parent is the one continually putting themselves out e.g. the DC doesn't want to go shopping so the parent goes in the evening-fine as an occasional thing but not if you live your life by it.

In general it is what you would wish to do and good parenting means you listen and explain and try and understand the DCs point of view. It runs into difficulties where, as earlier, a DC won't do up a plane seat belt and after endless argument the flight attendant just lets it remain unfasted (because he has lost the will to live!!!!)
It is prone to huge misunderstanding where parents just won't say 'no'. There are times when the parent has to be massively unpopular and say 'no', despite the tantrums it causes.

I would say that I used it in a general way, but with common sense and the odd reward can be useful.

"The underlying agenda is that they will see it your way and take the 'right' choice."

This isn't quite right. By listening to your child you could end up seeing it their way and decide that what you originally thought was the 'right' choice, isn't.

Surely any reasonable parent would do that anyway juuule?-all you need is good communication. It is common sense to find out why your DC is behaving in a certain way and they may well have a valid point. You don't need a book and a label to tell you to listen to your DC.
I object to pussyfooting around trying to get a DC to do up a plane seat belt. Of course you explain why it has to be done up and then you cut the nonsense and make them do it up!
If I was the flight attendant I would just have said 'what a shame-I have sweets for all the DCs who have seatbelts on' -I bet the DC would have done it- but the mother would have fumed!

"You don't need a book and a label to tell you to listen to your DC."

Some people get bogged down and need a different perspective. A book can help with that sometimes.
Some people need reassurance if their preferred way of dealing with their children isn't the norm in their area. Sometimes a book can help in that they don't feel so alone in their choice.
Labels? take them or leave them. As someone else said other people UP, BLW etc without ever knowing that some people have labels for those things.

I object to pussyfooting around trying to get a DC to do up a plane seat belt. Of course you explain why it has to be done up and then you cut the nonsense and make them do it up!

Imo that isn't inconsistent with UP as described in the book.

UP Sounds like what I do naturally anyway. Have never done naughty step, taking things off them etc

but what about the right of the child to be guided, even when they don't want to do something that they really need to do?

had I had my way a a 9 year old, I would never have gone to school again. I would not have allowed my mother to resolve my bullying issues, I'd have insisted she give up her job and let me stay at home and read.

As it was, he response was "Don't be silly, I'm 35 years old and I know what to do!"

She called the school, the school resolved the issue (they really did) and she dragged me back into school where, after a few hours, I continued my education quite happily.

Had she not ridden roughshodover my 'rational' desires, my education would probably have ended aged nine. Should she have negotiated with me? No, I don't think so. I was nine, she was 35, and she did know exactly what to do, and she was right. In the long term, she supported my right to a fear free adequate education, whilst NOT supporting my right to do what I wanted to do. She allowed that I was very angry with her, but in her words "I don't really care whether you're angry with me, you're nine and I'm in charge. You should trust me."

Whoever said (I am sure many of you have, I can't read this whole thread) that if you haven't been well parented yourself then you need help - that is so true.

We have had rather a difficult time with ds and the only thing that has made it easier for all of is is not using the naughty step/star charts/tons of strict discipline (I had a lot of strict discipline when I was a child, as in I was talked down to like a squaddie, scared of my sergeant mum, horrid). Because none of it was working at it felt rather bullying to me. If you child does it and plays your game - I guess that feels better for you. Mine didn't and wouldn't and there are other ways to get him to behave kindly so we use them.

I read half of Alfie Kohn and wouldn't bother with the other half, he's not all that - he sounds unbearable, actually.

Recently I heard about some semi-relations of mine and their style has been to go all out for discipline and control from the word go. The feeling amongst their family is one of sadness and regret - nobody is enjoying those children and they are not enjoying themselves either. If they are naughty they are made to face the wall in public and may not turn around until the parent says so. The older one is displaying signs of emotional abuse and he's only just 4. The parents seem proud of his saying "I am such a good boy, aren't I mummy?" while everyone else is deeply saddened.

I'm often reminded that so many people who have anxiety, depression and deeper psychological problems come from a background where they were totally controlled in some way or another.

I think every child is different and there is no one particular method of parenting that will suit every child. We pretty much do a mixture of different techniques depending on the situation. Of course it makes sense to listen to your child and try to understand their behaviour but what do you do when their behaviour is just downright mean or destructive? In a friend's case the answer is, go off and have a chat about her behaviour, let her come back and apologise and then sit and watch while she does the exact same thing again I am not the only one who has gotten fed up with my DC being hit/pushed around and having their toys and books destroyed! I think there has to be a point where you admit that a particular method isn't working and it's time to try something else!

but what about the right of the child to be guided, even when they don't want to do something that they really need to do?

This is a red herring. Of course I know as an adult what's best and can see the bigger picture in a way my child can't. What I would endeavour to do is find out why you don't want to go to school and talk about ways to help or even solve the problem. Make it as consensual as possible and take the child's wishes into consideration. I reckon most parents would do this however they consider they parent. I guess UP stands at the one end of this spectrum, the 'don't be ridiculous you ARE going', stands at the other.

Your mother sort of achieved this in a roundabout, rather authoritarian way.

There are non-negotiables with any parenting and they'll depend sometimes on the parent. Sleep, teeth brushing, having injections, attending school, etc.

Also, regardless of labels, there are always people (who just happen to be parents) who are unbelievable smug, think their children are (over-and-above-the-usual) extra special and require special treatment, who are inconsiderate, selfish, judgemental.

Imo that isn't inconsistent with UP as described in the book.

Unfortunately he isn't interpreted that way or the mother would have said 'if you don't do that seat belt up NOW I will do it for you' instead of wasting everyone's time.

I think every child is different and there is no one particular method of parenting that will suit every child. We pretty much do a mixture of different techniques depending on the situation.

This is also very true and you can deviate to rewards once in a while. The mother with the seat belt problem could have said-'do it up and I will find a sweet' -it really doesn't matter that the DC did it for a reward-the important thing is to do it. She could even have disguised it by saying 'it helps your ears on take off to suck a sweet'.

All DCs are different and parents do seem to assume their DCs are like them! My parents were very hot on reasons and I am a very private person. I got very good at trotting out a reason that they accepted when I either hadn't got a reason or I didn't want to say!

For those who do/use (not sure of terminology!) UP - how would you deal with a child (age 4) who pushes a 2 yr old who is quietly playing across the room and into a wall, takes every opportunity to run past him and 'accidentally' push him over, will rip up another child's picture in front of him while smiling about it, will tear pages out of other children's books? Surely none of that behaviour can be 'explained' by the child. It just seems downright mean! How is that behaviour corrected with UP?

Sorry, not sure if it is explained/justified - whatever the idea is!

That reminds of of our neighbours years ago bubbleymummy. The older sister was in the garden, everytime her little brother came out she hit him on the head with a tennis racket and he went in cryin! He didn't have the language skills to say why and his mother was getting increasingly irritated with him. She asked the sister who wide eyed and smiley 'had no idea'.
She was having a wonderful time!

My mother put a stop to her game by telling the neighbour what was going on!
A clear case for being very authoritarian and stopping it. (With explanations of how it was not only hurting DB but sneaky and mean-but whatever the DD reasons they don't excuse it).

"Unfortunately he isn't interpreted that way "

I agree it's unfortunate. But surely the blame for the mother's interpretation can't be laid at AK's door.

with exoticfruits example of being bullied and not wanting to go to school; Being bullied is really frightening for a child. I think her mum handled this in a way thta made her feel safe and restored her confidence. I think it would be unfair to let a young child have too much influence over how this situation is handled; they need to know that someone can take control and make it better. Also, letting the child stay away because they were being bullied would have been a terrible lesson in giving in to victimisation (you have to be cruel to be kind?)

Im interested to hear more about what UPers think about this

@holySchmoley ---and there is plenty of oppossing research which says that children need boundaries etc. And there is overwhelmingly more people who have not experienced conditionality when not UPed.

This reinforces for me the superiority projected by many UPs- dont assume that because people disagree with you, they are not understanding or are ill-informed etc

I think the aircraft seatbelt is a good example for a parent to model acceptable behaviour. It is not a good time or a good example where negotiation would be that valuable. By a quick explanation and a swift doing up of the belt and saying that 'we're holding up the flight' the parent can model consideration to others. It may not 'work' in that instant to evert a tantrum, but little by little the message and modelling sinks in. Or should sink in! I think the holding up the flight while negotiating is an example of ineffective parenting, not a good example of UP (if you want to use that label) is trying to achieve.

UP is an approach, a repudiation of rewards/sanctions behaviourism. As such it can be interpreted in many different ways. None of this is really the author's fault.

One thing I vehemently disagree with AK on is tantrums. He says (I recall) that you are doing something wrong if your child tantrums. I agree to a point but tiredness, a welling up of emotion perhaps linked to something else which you can't always spot or be expected to play a large part. Some children are more prone than others despite a fairly consistent way of parenting.

HS--i didnt mean to say if they disagree with YOU. I meant if they disagree with UPing- apologes

bejeesus. I just wonder a) how many UPers you know and have seen the inner sanctum to really get a feel for whether they do consider themselves 'superior'?

Could it just be a case of confirmation bias, in that you assume they consider themselves superior and 'find' examples in your dealings in real life and on forums that they are trying to be 'superior'.

I don't know any UPers, I don't discuss discipline with others and it's really a 'behind closed doors' issue. So I don't know where all these UPers are opining? But maybe I'm just a loner and a crumudgeon.