or are UP parents really nuts?

[FunnysInTheGarden]

I mean talk about making all your lives difficult....

Am ready BTW for the UP parents cries of dissent [cgrin]

ok so coercion is allowed with up? I think i'm getting confused with 'Taking children seriously' which used to be very popular on parenting forums.

I suspect most UP parents are essentially as consensual as possible, but are the ultimate arbiter of unpalatable decisions...which is just like most parents really, only without a lable.

So is UP basically explaining a situation to a child.
Well surely this is what nearly everyone does with out thinking about it?
It annoys me when people take an ordinary common sense thing like this and brand it as though they are the first parents in the world.Ye gods!!

I think there is hostility because we have all met (bad) examples of it!
We are also powerless to do what we would like to do in the situation! Like the flight attendant mentioned earlier-I bet he had a few pithy comments about that mother and also that he would have had the seat belt on in a trice if she hadn't have been there!

Everyone, I would assume, is aiming to bring up a thoughtful, caring, emotionally well balanced, friendly and sociable DC.
You get this if they think of others and aim to fit in. I am most proud that all my DCs have aways been described at school as kind and caring. Friends and family have been happy to have them. I always remember a friend who had them before school sometimes saying she loved it because when she said-'right-shoes on-time to go' she would look around and they were putting their shoes on! It was quite a problem with some of her charges apparently.

Many DCs who are difficult at home are happy and a delight at school because they know the boundries. They don't have the insecurity of an adult thinking that a 3 yr old might know best!

I think some of the people who are confused by the practise of UP are mainly bothered about situations when someone else's parenting affects their child or their own lives.
Like delaying a plane take off whilst seatbelt negotiations take place, or their child being hit by another child and the situation repeating at every encounter.
Or the endless negotiations that seem to take place over every decision whilst the time ticks away and the sun goes down.
I have a relative who raised her children with what she called UP. My two found it incomprehensible, and we'd often get on and do our own thing whilst she negotiated which items of clothing her children wanted to wear.
She was free to do whatever she wanted with regards to her child-raising, but we went to the park, or swimming or bowling instead of waiting for her every time. No stress for me, she usually caught up and all was well.

It annoys me when people take an ordinary common sense thing like this and brand it as though they are the first parents in the world.Ye gods!!

That is my other hostility towards it-the label. It is only what parents have been doing for decades-using common sense!!! It isn't rocket science to talk to a DC and explain reasons!

The other problem with UP is that the parent not only wants control of their own DC (it is a way of controlling the outcome you want) but that they want to control how other adults approach their DC. Woe betide the grandparent who might use a bit of bribery!

My mum worked in a family centre where a 3 year old had his head stroked and asked "Why do you feel the need to hit?" every time he smashed a toy into the face of another child.
It got so bad he was excluded. A 3 year old.
If that's UP then I think I'll take the alternative thanks very much.

I expect the mum stroking his head and being ineffectual would make anyone want to hit out!

Goblinchild I tend to like your answers so I'm going to just explain why I'm so interested in the "hostility" thing about UP.

I've not read any "UP" books, but UP sounds v. much like what my generation might have called "North London Liberal Parenting" back in the day.

My dc were brought up, I guess, in a (mildly) NLLP way, and - here's the thing - attended a school where the school did NLLP, along with most of the parents. It was the norm. Really. The teachers pretty much routinely discussed the wherefores and whyfores of any rules/requests. The school "mission statement" was all about fostering an enquiring attitude towards the world, confidence, autonomy, etc., etc.

As everyone says, these are pretty much common goals.

I don;t think I;d ever have realised how unusual this style of parenting/pedagogy was until I changed the dc's schools, and the circle of parent-acquaintances.

We did move, and into a school/area where the style was much more, what I now recognise as, "traditional". And it was interesting.

Having been considered a fairly "traditional" parent in our previous context, I came slowly to realise that my, previously unremarkable, parenting style, was attracting comment. It was very strange. And rather weirdly, my dd was being judged as (and this is really strange) not "feminine" enough: she was used to bot just following orders (not her fault - her previous school wasn't like the new one).

It all hook down OK in the end - I'm a great believer in being a participant observer in the cultures we embed ourselves in, and that social/behavioural flexibility is a great human skill, and to be nurtured. But it was odd.

I guess I still just find it strange to discover it isn't the norm, and that people are genuinely perplexed as to how you'd cope in a world without star-charts, naughty steps, etc.

I was so stunned when I discovered the new school did star charts and not (occasionally lengthy) discussion. But I then took part in an MN discussion and discovered this was the norm in most schools.

And, having come from a place where the idea of a "naughty step" was regarded with utter bewilderment, it is so weird to read these threads/encounter RL parents who think that is the norm. And it seems it may certainly be a statistical norm.

It's a whole big world out there, isn't it?

UP is only a problem when it is misinterpreted to mean 'let them do what they want'.

UP is a natural and common sense way to bring up kids and I am a very down to earth, working class sort of gal. Not woo or hippy or alternative at all really.

When parents misunderstand it and let their kids run riot it makes everyone think that is what UP is about.

I also hate it when everyday, common sense practices are given new lables and marketed i.e. co-sleeping, BLW, UP, Natural parenting, EBF etc etc.

Some of us have been sleeping with our kids and giving them things to chew on for generations without the need for banging on about it.

Of course it makes sense to discuss and negotiate with your children, its just not always practical and if your child is making everyone miserable with their behaviour - just stop it.

the school of parenting of 'can't be arsed' and 'oh gosh haven't a clue but what will they think of me?' should not be confused with UP

i dislike all these labels used to market books. the worse being controlled crying as if gf invented it herself

ThefirstMrsDeVere, why is it that I find myself agreeing with everything you ever write?

I'm not partial to labels myself. But we live in a capitalist society, and you can't blame anyone for selling things people want. Look at mineral water, for example ... . And are you asking me to believe you only have the one skirt?

But the OP is actually criticising the activity, style, mode of parenting and the parents carrying it out.

It's a funny old thing. And while, I think, here at the tail-end of the thread, we're reaching the "consensus-horizon", I do think there is something kind of odd about the fact it attracts attention.

suspect you;re all right, and it's because it's being marketed as a "new, complete" parenting thing, and we are subjecting it to rigorous analysis . Heck, I wasn't here for the GF debates - they must have been something.

Yes, I nodded a lot at that, TheFirstMrsDeVere.

"Some of us have been sleeping with our kids and giving them things to chew on for generations without the need for banging on about it."

thefirstMrsDeVere, I love you!

There are not two parenting styles! There are as many 'styles' as parents around the world. Billions. And billions combinations.

There are not 'traditional' and 'modern' styles either. We are not talking about The Dress now.

There have been good parents around the world over the centuries who talked to their dcs, gave them reasonable choices and explained why x behaviour is wrong. Some of them combined this with discipline and rewards, some only with rewards, some with no rewards at all. Nothing new or 'modern' .

I've never met a family who doesn't 'talk' (unless there is a SP cult=Silent Parenting)

I love you too thefirstMrsDeVere -I think we need a common sense fan club!
People have been doing all these things for decades quietly -it is after all common sense that you explain reasoning to DCs and treat them with respect.

I also hate it when everyday, common sense practices are given new lables and marketed i.e. co-sleeping, BLW, UP, Natural parenting, EBF etc etc.

This is what I hate-and some of the terms are downright stupid-like 'baby wearing' as if the poor little thing is your accessory -like a handbag!

Unconditional is the one that really upsets me as if someone using a star chart only loves their DC if they get the stars!!! If the star chart works for someone and they have a nice, harmonious home because of it why not?

If schools use star charts or granny gives a reward it doesn't matter-DCs are very adaptable and it is much better for them to have everyone in their life in harmony, rather than bossy parents laying down 'their rules' that 'everyone' has to follow.

You know you have done a good job when they get to adulthhood-can function on their own in the world and people like them! There is far more to parenting than a method! There are lovely people, who have wonderful relationships with their parents and they were not in the least UP in upbringing. A relaxed parent, being themselves is much better than a stressed one trying to do 'the right thing' whatever the 'right thing' is.

I go away to do some sorting and dusting and I come back to a love-in.

I am hugely

Now shuddup or I'll get kicked off MN.

Are you planning on raising Carrot as an Unconditional Parakeet, MrsDeVere ? :o