to be pissed off at school revelations?

[HKLP]

Have name changed for this as the route in which I found out this info makes me very identifiable.

I always have my friend's DD on Teacher training days as she has to work at the school the DC attend.

My 2DC are off school today and tomorrow as the school decided to manipulate TT days so that the school broke up on 8th April(1.30pm) and return 3rd May. It means the school will be open on Polling Day (with extra safeguarding in place ) and we will not finish one day early in July as we normally do.

That's fine, but obviously 3 weeks and a day and a half makes life very difficult for WOHPs.

After speaking to my friend last night, it was revealed that the staff are not going into school on these 2 days as have worked/will work extra hours after school to make up the time.

Apparently, attendance at afterschool events will count towards this time, rather than actual training. Is this acceptable standrd practice?

AIBU to be pissed off about this?

morebeta - last time i looked there was nothing stopping those graduates and well qualified older women going and doing a PGCE and becoming teachers - oh yes, there is they don't like the real hours of work, the poor pay and the conditions. A first or 2.1 from Cambridge or another other Russell group university isn't what will make you a good teacher, a passion for the subject your teaching and a desire to educate are far more important.

Maxine12 state schools can't employ someone without NQT status (full degree) as a teacher so if you know schools doing that they are breaking the law.

My point was that parents should know the qualifications of the staff who teach their children. It should be displayed as part of school prospectus. I'm not disputing that there are graduates working as support staff / secretaries etc but at the very least you want your child to be taught by a graduate with some knowledge of specialist subject area they are teaching in. Many of PSA barely literate in school I have worked in and put in a teaching position by the school simply because it's a cheap option.

It happens all the time in schools where management feel there will be no parental backlash.

I'm going to have to hide this thread before I say something I regret.
I feel sick with the ridiculous bile spouted about lazy feckless teachers.

I have been here before with MoreBeta, Lemon.

It's actually quite amusing after a while...

Maxine I am not saying that graduates working as support staff should be exploited in this way. The schools are breaking the law and in some cases this is with the blessing of those staff and parents.
I would be very unhappy if it were happening in my school or the school my children attended.

Morebeta - most teachers already work those hours without extra pay. Teachers have 1265 hours directed time teaching/ meetings / parents evenings etc - but have open ended contracts which require them to work unpaid for as much time as necessary to discharge their professional duties. The difference with the system you suggest is that it would bring within a contract the extra time teachers do. Non - teachers often think that teaching is the only part of a teacher's job which qualifies as work. If you are, for instance, a boiler engineer, you are not paid only for the time you spend fixing boilers - the rest of your job consists of fault diagnosis, ordering parts, testing after a fix, invoicing, travelling, making safety checks and preparations. Teachers are in a similar situation.

I bet most teachers would bite your hand off to accept the huge reduction in workload that a 9-5 Monday-Friday contract with 6 weeks actual holiday would bring.

These arguments come up time and again. I hate when the teachers say they are contracted for x number of hours and if they did more days in the holiday their pay would go up, well that may be technically right but the truth is that professionals are paid a salary to get the job done, and a professional teacher should see their pay like that and I'm sure many do. That particular argument makes teachers look petty.

It's also true that employers can dictate when you take your holiday, so teachers could in theory be made to have 5/6 weeks and dictated that they can only take them when the children are off. They should then be in school the rest of the time. This might be a good system to make it all more transparent.

Many many people work long hours. I honestly don't think that some people who have always been teachers realise this.

I suspect the huge disparity in the pay structure for teachers, where someone might be paid a lot more than someone else that is less experienced in years does teachers no favours either. It discourages people experienced in other professions from coming in because of the low start wage. At the end of the day the less experienced person still takes a class all day. I agree the more experienced should be paid more, but not lots more. I think having lots of teachers that have done other jobs first would be good for schools, students and teachers, especially at secondary.

Everyone knows people they went to school with that weren't particuarly bright that ended up a teacher. That doesn't help. I suspect (hope) entrance levels are higher now then they were 10/20 years ago.

Lots of people also know someone who doesn't work long hours and still appears to be a good teacher and says they do it for the holidays. Such people often say many of their colleagues are annoying.

Despite some of the negative things that I've said I'm not going to judge if teaching is hard or not as I haven't done it so I don't know. I suspect it is hard to keep putting on 'the face' all day as you are on show all day. I think that teachers should acknowlege some of the ways they have it easy though.

My favourite part of being a teacher is screwing up kids with my liberal leftie views.

The eight months' holiday is just an added bonus.

moomaa we are professionals salaried to work 195 days a year (1265 hours directed time) We don't get paid for school holidays contrary to popular belief and whether you like it or not most teachers give lots of hours unpaid not forgetting that we spend lots of our own salary to buy resources that unlike other professionals we can't claim tax relief on.

I previously worked in industry and don't know any of my salaried professional colleagues who worked for nothing (ok maybe a perk rather than cash).

Tethers - don't forget the opportunity to be single-handedly responsible for the breakdown in society and the fact that nobody has any respect these days.

MoreBeta doesn't seem to realise that public sector workers , including teachers currently have a pay freeze for two years, when she whinges about teachers pay. Also many teachers are about to be made redundant due to cuts ,including 12 at DH's school.When your kids don't have the teachers they need moan then[hmmm]
Does she work for the teacher bashing DM?

To answer stayfrosty and her points along with many others.

The logistics are simple. Teachers need to work like any other worker.

That means:

You turn up every day physically present in the school building every day you are actually working - not sitting at home.

You comply with the Working Time Directive. You get 20 minutes break for each 6 hour shift. You get 4 weeks statutory holiday. You turn up 9 - 5 every single day you are not on holiday or ill without fail.

You take 2 weeks of your 4 weeks holiday at Christmas when all schools are shut. You are free to take the other 2 weeks at any time of your choosing outside of specified core teaching months. You do not take Bank Holidays in addition to your 4 weeks. You do not get a pay rise for working a full year and having to physically turn up to work. You do not get an automatic pay rise every year. You have to pay pension contributions that take account of the true value of the pension.

Schools will be open 50 weeks a year and expected to be fully operational just like any other business of critical public service. Hospitals dont shut for 4 months of the year - neither should schools.

Think that is unfair?

Well that is the world of work of most people. If you dont like it then stop teaching and try and get a job in the private sector on such easy terms.

You won't. That is why parents resent the way teachers work. Teachers do not face the pressure other workers do - especially juggling holidays and childcare.

MoreBeta Thu 28-Apr-11 12:20:38

No - teachers should be forced to work the extra hours for no extra pay.

Are you a bit simple? I think it has been pointed out many many MANY times that they already do

May I ask why you're not a teacher yourself, seeing as you know so much about it?

I stated on Goodbye's other post that I'd be bang up for their unworkable idea. Less hours, more money (good luck making 500 extra hours unpaid sound remotely sane and unspiteful MB) and cheaper/more flexible holidays. Sounds great, genuinely. The fact that there would be no parents' evenings or non-curricular activities; that there'd be poorly planned/tailored lessons that are totally non-responsive and parents struggling to simultaneously drop kids at school at 9 whilst starting in the office at the same time is not my concern.

COCKadoodledooo - "No - teachers should be forced to work the extra hours for no extra pay."

That is exactly happening every day in the private sector. Teaching unions need to get real - the world is changing. Work or starve.

Oh, and I don't want my kids at school 50 weeks a year thanks. I suppose parents will be able to take their children away on holiday whenever they like as well, therefore causing even more disruption?

4 weeks minus bank holidays is less than statutory I think?

You have addressed none of Stayfrosty's points about the logistics, MoreBeta. Please try again. NinkyNonker has helpfully surmised them for you

"Well that is the world of work of most people. If you dont like it then stop teaching and try and get a job in the private sector on such easy terms."

Ok, I will. Hmm, let's see... Oh yes, private schools! Teachers get more pay and more holidays! Yay!

If you want to assimilate conditions in the public sector to those in 'the private sector', then teachers' terms and conditions need to be far better than they are currently.

I'm warming to the idea, actually

Me too, unpaid overtime was unheard of in my previous career working for a Big 4 firm.

maybe parents could pick and choose what days they send their DC in, if schools are going to be open all year round (bar two weeks at Christmas). I quite fancy Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. I do hope that the work they don't do on Wednesdays and Fridays will be delivered to them on one of the other days. That's not going to cause any additional workload is it?

Morebeta - i think you'll find its 5.6 weeks or 28 days that your entitled too although this may inc. bank holidays.

Doesn't matter IShall, the teachers will only be working 9-5, so if they miss it they miss it I'm afraid. And don't ask to speak to the teacher when you finish work, they won't be available.

MoreBeta I would love a 20 mins break for every 6hours I work can you arrange it?