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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Need advice badly!!!

383 replies

worriedandneedsomeadvice · 25/04/2011 16:54

I've just been at the garden centre with my 7 month DD and my 4 year old cocker spaniel.

A man bent down to stroke my dog before I could tell him not to and my dog went for him. Badly. His hand was dripping blood immediately.

I apologised and apologised and my BIL (the manager of the garden centre) took over to make sure the man was okay so I could take the dog (and DD) out.

He's been a bit growly lately but has never done anything like this before.

I'm shaking. I don't know what's going to happen and I don't know what to do.

He's fantastic with my DD, gentle as a lamb with her but as I said, lately he's been growly, especially at children he doesn't know so I've made sure to keep him on a lead and mostly just at home. But he loves BIL so I always take him to the garden centre when we go...

I can't believe this has happened. I don't know what to do. I'm waiting for BIL to call me, but the mans hand looked terrible... Absolutely dripping with blood. It was so quick.

Please give me some advice if you can??

OP posts:
Morloth · 27/04/2011 12:06

Yes, but the OP doesn't know that it was a reflex action, she doesn't know whether just ensuring her baby doesn't wave something in the dog's face is enough.

It is the not knowing that would lead me to keep them seperate.

Vallhala · 27/04/2011 12:16

ARGH! I wasn't saying that she did know that. I've already made that clear!

If that were the case I wouldn't have advised her to get pooch vet checked and identified and put her in touch with some behaviouralists.

I am speaking wrt the calls to have the dog killed or rehomed because he's bitten as if it's automatically an issue which is otherwise going to be ongoing.

WRT the baby, I don't advise much on DC - I find dogs far easier to deal with. :o I''ve dealt with - owned, fostered, taken in from the street, taking in from the pound, taking in from uncaring owners - all manner of dogs throughout my children's lives and will continue to do so. I know my way of dealing with them and my own abilities and confidence. I don't know the OP and so I'm unable to judge her skills in this area and so don't consider that I'm well placed to advise either way wrt the baby.

Vallhala · 27/04/2011 12:17

Well bugger me, that bolding went wrong, didn't it?

Time for some tea and to walk some more dogs. :)

mouseanon · 27/04/2011 12:22

"Pack theory" or "dominance theory" was based on misinterpretations of the observations of wolf society. In actual fact there is no fixed "pecking order" in a pack.

Dominance can only be accurately used to describe individual interactions rather than to define relationships. For example it would be assumed that a larger stronger dog would be the more dominant. But it is probably also a lot better fed than the small skinny dog. So if the two of them come across some food the skinny dog will fight much harder to get it than the well fed dog. But it rarely comes to that. Normally dominance is not demanded and taken but rather given by the other dog. In that case the well fed dog won't think it worth getting injured in a fight over food it doesn't really need, whereas clearly the skinny dog would. But rather than fighting over it the well fed dog will just back down and let the skinny dog take it. There might be a few warning growls but not likely a fight. So in that interaction the skinny dog could be described as dominant. In a different circumstance where the same two dogs want to get through a narrow doorway but neither has greater need, the chances are the stronger dog would win out and could therefore be described as dominant. Same dogs, same relationship, different circumstances.

So it isn't necessary to feed your dog after you have eaten, but it is necessary to ensure that you are in control of the situation. "Fido, sit, wait." Put bowl down. "Good boy Fido, eat up then." Dog eats food. Irrelevant if you have eaten first or not. If you eat first but the dog bashes the bowl out of your hands and growls if you go near, you still have a problem. Likewise letting dogs on furniture. Not a big deal as long as they are polite about it. It doesn't infer any kind of dominance in itself. If they start warning you off then you have a problem. Personally my dog isn't allowed on furniture or upstairs in the house. This is because he's a big dog and I knew there was a baby on the way when we got him and didn't want a squashed or slobbered on baby. Not allowed upstairs because we had cats well before we got him and they needed space to escape and feel safe. Also it limits the spread of hair and mud. He still gets plenty of love and cuddles but we get down to his level to give them. It's just a question of personal preference though, not a training issue.

worraliberty · 27/04/2011 12:26

The toast theory is still neither here nor there really.

It still means the dog lashes out when he's scared/worried and unless that can be sorted out, he should NOT be anywhere near the baby unsupervised..ie sleeping under the cot.

Morloth · 27/04/2011 12:37

I can't figure out the new bolding thing either. It was a PITA before when you had to do each individual word but at least I knew the rules.

Vallhala · 27/04/2011 12:48

"The toast theory is still neither here nor there really.

It still means the dog lashes out when he's scared/worried and unless that can be sorted out, he should NOT be anywhere near the baby unsupervised..ie sleeping under the cot."

No, worral it doesn't. It means that the dog MAY be no more likely to indiscriminately bite a child (or anyone else) than me BUT that, like me and a huge percentage of other mammals for whom self-preservation is a natural instinct, he has reacted instinctively to be STARTLED, which is different to displaying fear aggression - i.e. lashing out when he is scared/worried.

The two types of canine behaviour - shock reaction and fear aggression - are completely different.

Punkatheart · 27/04/2011 13:08

Mouse is right. I know about wolves and most wolf biologists pull out their hair at the nonsense that is spouted. But some of those applied theories are dangerous....

CalamityKate · 27/04/2011 13:11

Even the bloke who originally came up with the wolf pack theory now says he was wrong. But still it gets trotted out...

impty · 27/04/2011 13:31

Wow, this has been one that split everyone!

OP I hope that your dog is okay, and the vets test come back okay. I also hope that the mans hand heals quickly and well.

It sounds like you've taken it seriously. Muzzling your dog is the only real solution, and will mean that it can't ever bite again but that it also will be left alone.

Some people who have retired greyhounds keep them muzzled when out to stop them being bothered rather than because they are a threat.... Works both ways.

Now I'll sit back and see who get annoyed by my comments...!

worraliberty · 27/04/2011 15:26

But Vall for a family dog to react that way to being startled is totally unacceptable. That is the point I'm trying to make.

When my dog has been accidentally stood on for example, he let's out a mix between a bark and a yelp and rushed straight under the dining table.

If he reacted by attacking and drawing blood, that would be totally unacceptable especially in a house with children.

Equally, if this dog reacts like that to being startled, the OP's daughter may lose her face when she's toddling around and acidentally steps/falls on the dog.

FuppyGish · 27/04/2011 16:02

"But Vall for a family dog to react that way to being startled is totally unacceptable. That is the point I'm trying to make.

When my dog has been accidentally stood on for example, he let's out a mix between a bark and a yelp and rushed straight under the dining table.

If he reacted by attacking and drawing blood, that would be totally unacceptable especially in a house with children.

Equally, if this dog reacts like that to being startled, the OP's daughter may lose her face when she's toddling around and acidentally steps/falls on the dog."

Exactly. The reaction may have been because of shock but do you seriously think he's not going to get any further shocks when the baby is around? Waving toys? Sudden shrieks? Throwing things etc?

wotnochocs · 27/04/2011 16:48

....self-preservation is a natural instinct, he has reacted instinctively to be STARTLED, which is different to displaying fear aggression - i.e. lashing out when he is scared/worried.'

But the end result is the same !It's not a case of whether the dog needs punishing.It's a case of protecting other people, whether it might ever do the same or worse again.

wotnochocs · 27/04/2011 16:49

Also OP you need to be aware that although you can keep your baby and dog apart while she is so little .in time she will be walking and then opening doors and it will be much harder.

soverylucky · 27/04/2011 17:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChippingInLovesEasterEggs · 27/04/2011 17:13

Worried did you see the BT today? How did it go?

freesias · 28/04/2011 10:10

valhalla i have to disagree with you over the toast incident ,while i agree it would be perfectly acceptable to shout in dog terms growl or even for your hand to as a reflex reach out and result in contact with your dd resulting in a slap it would not however be reasonable for you to have hit your dd so hard she bled , bruised or required stiches.that would raise questions about your ability to control your anger and ss would certainly be involved even for a first offence .

this was a garden centre presumably well lit , noisy with lots of people etc but not disimilar to walking adog on a pavement or near a playarea etc.it wasn't a dark back alley where my response to the actions would be very different.

the dog reacted not with a nip or a warning growl but with a severe bite . yes it may have been in a situation that was unpredictable but the bottom line is there is nothing more unpredictable than very small children .they wobble fall over , reach out with no warning often meaning no harm but definitely enough to spook some animals . an animal who reacts to something like this without even a warning growl or even a nip but leaps straight to biting should imo not be in the same home as a small child .behavioural thearapy takes time it will not be an overnight cure and you need to spend alot of time working with you dog not something you always have with a small child . the op has a 7 month old who could easily be crawling within the month and toddling within 2 or 3 , she does not have time on her side .
while the dog may or may not deserve to be euthanised

for a first offence , rehoming needs to be seriously considered imho permanently but at the very least in the short term while the obvious behavioural problems are dealt with before it is reintroduced to a small child's home

there is no way it should be sleeping under a childs cot ( baby's do scream suddenly flail etc in the night ) and to say it couldn't reach the cot is not true i had a jack russell who could easily jump a six foot fence .

whatever the op decides i hope it works for her but i truly hope she is not on this or another forum in a few months or years time asking how she deals with her dd's scars .

Original poster
worriedandneedsomeadvice · 28/04/2011 13:06

Fressias - your clearly circus trained jack russell is obviously quite the freak of nature because my dog can't jump into the crib.

The police dog handler was fantastic, challenged my dog again and again and didn't find him to be aggressive and although he thinks he could benefit from a bit more training, certainly didn't think I needed to keep him locked away from the baby any more than any other person would keep an eye on any dog.

OP posts:
BeerTricksPotter · 28/04/2011 14:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChippingInLovesEasterEggs · 28/04/2011 14:11

Brilliant news Worried :)

Were you able to stay and watch what he was doing? I bet it was really interesting (if you were able to!). Was he able to offer any insight to what he thought might have caused Dog to lash out?

Was he able to offer any suggestions for further training?

FuppyGish · 28/04/2011 14:18

So you don't know what caused it to bite last time and guess what, you won't know what causes it to bite next time. Lets hope its you who gets bitten not some innocent bystander (or your poor baby).

Original poster
worriedandneedsomeadvice · 28/04/2011 15:17

I'm glad you've hidden the thread FuppyGish, because with the best intentions, Fuck off. You don't know me, you don't know my baby and you don't know my dog. A vet and a police dog handler have both seen him and given advice, forgive me if I would rather listen to professionals than some bitchy bored woman looking for an argument.

Chipping - yes, it was amazing! He's going to do a couple of follow up home visits then I'm going to go to his training class - it was so impressive. He put a plate of food on the floor when he first got to my house and three hours later my dog still hadn't gone for it... Which had me open mouthed as we usually wouldn't have seen that food for dust...

He did say that my dog was probably a mixture of startled / hot / maybe not feeling well. He really didn't find him aggressive, I'm so happy :)

OP posts:
HarrietSchulenberg · 28/04/2011 15:26

A little blood can go a long way ...

Oroski123 · 28/04/2011 15:29

Unusual behaviour in dogs can be medical. Your dog could have an infection or something that irritates him. You also didn't mention if it was neutered or it age?
I've always found that dogs much like children can be unpredictable- however 9 times out of 10 theres a reason for it.

Being a dog owner myself I feel for you because a similar situation occurred with my lurcher and a stranger that came to pet him whilst he was standing next to my step son in the park. The Dog naturally went for the man to protect "his pack" (my step son). He didn't manage to break the skin as the old man seemed to have the reflexes of a jungle cat! But its left us slightly concerned about taking the pair of them out together. By itself, our dog is a legend, but add the boy, and he goes into battle mode.

I feel that that could have been all it was with you too. The problem is getting the bitee to understand it.

buggerlugs82 · 28/04/2011 15:29

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