to think it's highly unlikely that Jesus was dead when they put him into the tomb?

[cunexttuesonline]

Crucified for 1 day with nails put in hands and feet and a spear wound on his side. I think he must have just been unconscious when put in the cave. Then 'came to' the day later and pushed the stone away with the sort of supehuman strength that, for example, women get whentheir babies are trapped under soemthing heavy. Guards outside tomb could have been sleeping or buggered off or something.

I will return with the name of an eminent published historian who wrote a history of Europe. He obviously has scant time for the teachings of Jesus and is a confirmed atheist.

Yet he does not disbelieve that Jesus lived or died or the manner of his death.

He questions the way in which Jesus became the figure head of such a lasting religion, and derides his teachings.

I daresay if he could, he would happily state that Jesus did not exist but he can't.

I suspect that he is probably more widely read and has more widely researched than many of the rest of us and therefore if he can't disprove the veracity of Jesus' life, nor can anyone.

I don't think many people would argue that oral tradition is the equivalent of a contemporaneous (to coin an expression) witness statement. But it is true to say that oral tradition is not simply repeated hearsay.

Some texts which have been orally (in some cases) handed down through the years have since been rediscovered as older texts and are virtually indistinguishable from the oral versions.

This is no different from the manner in which some of the ancient Greek and Latin poems which we learned at school were remembered and recorded.

"But it is true to say that oral tradition is not simply repeated hearsay."

No it isn't.

What a fascinating discussion! I would class myself as agnostic - I'd like to have faith, but I can't. I believe there may be something out there - ie god - and that there was a teacher who believed he was a prophet - ie Jesus.

I just can't join those dots together to make the picture.

I am genuinely thrown by Astrophe's comment about Jesus being a love/hate figure. I had never thought in those terms before. Hmm.

[http://www.amazon.com/Joshua-Man-They-Called-Jesus/dp/0734402341 Joshua The Man They Called Jesus]]

Great book on this subject.
The Author isn't Christian (from memory) but had no doubt as a historian that the historical figure existed. Wan't called Jesus though.

Jesus The Man They Called Joshua

Sorry - stuffed up the link

Hah - and then I stuffed up the Title.
More coffe.

ok, can't resist wading in.... have read about half and skimmed the rest. I'm going to respond to the OP.

From my understanding....

• before Jesus was crucified, he was flogged. This wasn't just a whipping like we think of it today, it involved a heavy whip with many tails, and bits of bone and stones tied into it. it literally flayed the person, removing skin from their backs and arms. many people died from the flogging alone and didn't make it to the cross.

• crucifiction wasn't the sort of thing you escaped from. The Bible is clear that there were soldiers posted, which was the normal way. These soldiers were usually on pain of death, i.e. if the prisoner escaped the soldiers would be killed in their place. These soldiers would be experienced in crucifiction. They would not be motivated to letting down people who had "just fainted".

• the soldiers were suprised Jesus died so quickly, so checked he was dead by stabbing his side with a spear. Blood and water came out. This is indicative of a separation in the bloodstream of the plasma from the rest of the blood, i.e. the heart has been stopped for some time.

• Matthew's gospel (chapter 27) says the chief priests and rabbis were worried that Jesus' followers would steal the body and claim he was resurrected - so they posted a guard outside the tomb. This guard would not have been friendly to the idea of helping a near-dead Jesus roll away the stone and spring back into life

• several gospels say the stone infront of the tomb was "very large". A physically fit person would find it hard to move a boulder which is waist high. Could a person close to death, even under a "superhuman rage" sort of effort, do this with a "big" stone?

• Jesus was crucified on the day before passover, i.e. Friday. He was in the tomb from Friday night all through Saturday before anyone found it empty on Sunday. If he was going to "revive" surely 2 days without water after going through such trauma would make it much less likely?

• The early sightings of Jesus after the resurrection are very strange if Jesus didn't die. His disciples initially didn't recognise him. The Marys thought he was a gardener. Nobody was carrying him on a stretcher, he didn't need medical help, infact he was wandering about cooking breakfast for his mates on the beach.

• the disciples (some of whom were at the crucifiction) who claimed to have seen the risen Christ were risking death by saying this. They were hounded by the Romans and the Jewish powers, they were imprisoned, stoned, generally not well liked. I find it hard to believe that people would take this personal risk for little or no payoff unless they genuinely believed what they were saying. Con artists don't usually risk their lives for their cons, and con artists don't usually pull a con with no payoff.

Anyway, just my thoughts, wanted to drop them in as it seems to be going a bit off topic.

Hope you get some useful answers - i'd definitely suggest a book on the subject if you want to find out more. Good luck!

oops - blood and water - after further googling it seems this is not a blood and plasma separation but instead the water like fluid in the pericardium surrounding the heart - and blood from the heart itself. stabbing through the heart doesn't tend to help people much.

It's possible, OP , but I don't believe it.

I believe that Jesus "suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. On the third day, he rose again and is seated at the right hand of the Father." :) It's nuts, but I believe in it, as Anne Lamott said "As much as I believe in gravity or the weight of water." You, of course, are free to believe whatever you like. Belief isn't often a choice, I find.

I wonder if Jesus believed in homeopathy?

Most likely. :)

This is SUCH an interesting thread.

And not too many people throwing playground insults which is refreshing.

I am going to look out for the books mentioned.

interesting name for the book bubbaluv - afaik, Jesus and Joshua (Y'shua) are the same name in two different languages - possibly Hebrew and Aramaic? Does sound an interesting read.

I agree, its refreshing to have such a thread where everyone is acting civily and people have the oportunity to consider other opinions :)

I think they are the same person as well Astrophe . Will google and return :)

gapsagoodun - glad it got you thinking :)

There is a quote I've heard - I'm not sure if its the name or a book, or who said it originally, but it says that there are really 3 conclusions one can come to about Jesus - that he was either "a liar, a lunatic or the Lord". If lunatic, well thats a bit sad really. If liar, well thats a bit scary, and if neither of those, then he is the Lord, in which case that has big implications.

gaps - I really reccomend the book linked to below to you - 'who moved the stone'.

Well, now I'm just confused. But! I think it's the same name, or derived from the same name, but one is in the Old Testament (Joshua) and then Jesus in the New. Or something. It's late and I need to go to bed. :)

I think the Liar, Lord, Lunatic thing was CS Lewis. Maybe?

CheerfulYank, It's a while since I read the book, but I think he said that he was known as Joshua at the time and the name was changed during one of the Greek translations of the bible. I think he also said that was the origin of the "virgin"Mary bit. i.e. it was designed to fit more comfortably with Greek Mythology of a god impregnating a mortal to create an immortal who walked among the people.
Might have to dig it out for a re-read!

Right. I just meant as far as the Bible goes, Joshua and Jesus are two different people. They might (if either or both of them existed) both been called Yeshua or some variation thereof?

have both been

GothAnneGeddes
I am not Muslim bashing. These are the facts as I see them but this is what Muslims do is it not. Everytime someone questions Islam they are accused of racism and Muslim bashing
I was making a point about onagar and if she made these points about Islam how far would she get

YANBU as such...
You don't believe, you don't want to believe...and I would say that a lot of people think like you.

You ARE being unreasonable (aside from downright insensitive) to post this thread on Easter Sunday knowing that it might offend many christians...but that you have done so anyway says a lot about the person you are.

I think it's rather sad (having got back from spending a really good weekend away with my family) that you had nothing better to do over your bank holiday weekend than to do this.

Would you have had the guts to slam the Muslim faith?
I don't think so...it's more fun to you to pick on an 'easier' target.

I believe that Jesus existed more than I believe that this OP exists.......put it that way..................