To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

Quran says to dress modestly and cover your bosom with your headscarf. Burqa-weearers are basically extremists of this idea of modesty.

Lol nijinsky im not engaging with you...actually im off the thread i find it insulting that you associate honour killing with religion and asian men as muslim.

To those of you not as narrow minded or ignorant id love o meet uo with you all,jist for a chin wag and some nice teA...mint tea anyone.

OP I think you've made lots of assumptions about oppression and controllingess in that man. The woman probably couldn't speak English

I do feel a bit of a visceral response to the burka - it seems so alien. BUT the way I see it, it's been adopted almost as a statement of solidarity amongst British - born Muslims . If Muslims weren't subjected to so much stereotyping they wouldn't feel the need to adopt extreme measures to assert their religious beliefs. But then it becomes a vicious circle, because the veil does seem to say "separate", and "not like me"

I think France's measure is counter-productive.

Thanks Cote but I'm trying to get the idea of why that is? I mean why does the Quran say that?

i dont like them, i find them divisive and excluding

I live in an area where there is a large Hassidic community - they also wear unusual clothing and women have to cover their hair (or shave and wear wigs), wear long skirts and tights in all weathers. It seems a bit unnecessary to me but not offensive.

Horses for Courses

BTW Gingefringe - wondering if you are a journalist?

One of my good friends is Muslim and covers up - of her own free will. Her DH doesn't make her and in fact, when she told her family of her intention to start wearing the veil they thought she was crazy. It's part of her belief that she feels she just can't ignore and to her mind it doesn't make her feel any the less British. I understand her reasons for doing it... I don't agree with them but it's not really something that affects our friendship.

That she chose to do it is really important to her and makes her feel more empowered as a woman, and not subservient or dominated.

OP - why the initial post then no response?

France banning the niqab is just another way of men telling women how to dress. Women [in France] are allowed to show their breasts, their underwear, their backside and any amount of flesh they wish. If a woman wants to cover up, who says "she can't do that, she MUST dress like everyone else".

Another point, OP, just because she had her face covered DOES NOT mean she cannot speak English. She may have been British born and bred. Jumping to conclusions about culture and nationality is a dangerous game.

YABU for glaring - none of your business really. Not saying it isn't hard not to judge, though.

I found it hard when I worked in La Senza on Oxford Street and had to serve a wealthy man with a group of bhurka'd ladies; he wanted every set that came with thong, bra and suspender belts, but only if he could get it in every one of their sizes - if we were sold out of a size, he didn't want that style. I could only imagine as I rang up the $2,000 order what kind of event required this man and the entire gaggle of women, who also got no say whatsoever in which designs they got to wear.

If she was doing herself up for her female friends then why not have a female friend come and help her with the makeup?

WL, it's a practice that dates from 18th century Arabia (at least 18th century) that was promoted by the Wahhabi sect and is now law in Arabia and other Muslim countries dominated by Wahhabism, an ultra conservative brand of Islam whose aim is to push to the sidelines all other branches of Islam and establish itself as the one true Islam and thus unify the Muslim world under its banner. SA oil money (at least $87 billion) has provided finding for Wahhabi missionary activity, the building of mosques and the training of conservative religious leaders. The Wahhabis regard the Koran and Hadith as the only authorities when it comes to law (law and religious obligations being one and the same thing) and any question of interpretation of the Koran or Hadith regarded as being settled hundreds of years ago is no longer up for discussion; the wearing of the burqa is one such settled question.

Cynics argue that the covering up of women by the burqa is a reflection of male feelings of insecurity or male refusal to be responsible for their own behaviour wrt women. It is officially supposed to be a visual representation of a woman's commitment to God and living the life ordained for faithful Muslims who are women.

Oh and Qu'ran merely says;

"Speak to men through a curtain". It doesn't speak of covering the face per se.

Mathan, a lot of Islamic women do not have their own money and are often chaperoned.

However, she may have just been spending the day with her husband and decided to pick up some foundation.

Do you query the same thing when you see a presumable non Islamic man and his wife shopping? Do you instantly think she is oppressed when he offers to buy her supper?

Totally agree with you lady of the manor ! How dare they dictate what women should wear. Why IS it ok to be topless etc. but not ok to cover your head ?

Hoorah! Someone who agrees on me. I thought I was starting a new trend of hatred.

I want to walk in Cairo in a bikini. But i would be attacked....

LadyoftheManor, there are plenty of choices between 'dressing like everyone else' (whatever that might mean, because most people go to great lengths to distinguish themselves from others through clothing) and covering yourself from head to toe. France is not dictating what women must wear. It is dictating what must not be worn. Most French Muslim women do not veil anyway -- they have apparently found the middle ground between dressing like women of the Arabian peninsula in the 18th century and dressing(?) like the women of Aintree.

or with me.

I hope for their sakes, they wear surgical masks, hijabs and sunglasses. It's no one else's business what women clothe themselves in. Thankfully due to Cameron's big society idea the ban won't reach our shores.

You would have a hard time if you walked through LONDON in a bikini too !

YouAreToo- Perhaps not, but there are other predom. Muslim countries where it would be perfectly acceptable.

Thanks math that kind of explains it.

Though I can't think for the life of me why covering up doesn't extend to Muslim men?

For what it's worth, my opinion is they do make women look as though they don't want to mix properly/aren't allowed to mix properly with western women and men. Whether they do or not...I have no idea and that's probably down to the individual person anyhow (just thinking out loud here)

Probably one of the most anti-social pieces of clothing there is, next to a balaclava and I wouldn't feel comfortable conducting a conversation with someone wearing one of them either.

Worral, do you wish to conduct a conversation with many covered women? Is it getting in the way?

I find it hard to have a discussion with women who barely cover their breasts, or men that read page 3. I can imagine the uproar if they became banned.