To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

BW I willc ertainly start to wear a Hijab at least if the state brings in legislation too- as a white Christian female.

AS I am able to choose to wear a revoltingly unsuitable for my fat arse minidress then so should a woman be able to choose to wear a burkha: oppression not so but oppressing one roup 9those who wish to wear a burkha) in order to free another doesn;t add up.

Betters ervices for those who decide to seek gelp from oppressive cultures and relationships just might however.

Somehow, if woman in OP ws so oppressed, I suggest she'd not have been allowed within ten foot of a make up counter. And that a man prepared to brave the interestingly apinted women who often habituate those places is not necessarily the sort who thinks all feminity should be covered or hidden, or is shameful.

I wear a burka, i often walk 10 steps behind my husband ( spd postnatal) i often cant b bothered to pay sp i send my husband. Am i oppressed?nope. Do i speak english? Yes born and bred here ansmd have a post grad too. I choose to wear it, am i friendly i hope so, If im at sure start and no males are there i lift my burqa up.

Seriously stop thinking we are oppressed, go read a book from my sisters' lip by naima b robert.

This will sound silly, and I'm not trying to get a but how do you recognise a woman in a Burka, as in if it is a friend how do you know it's her?

I'm a supporter of France's decision and the reasons they have made it.

I think there's a very fine line between doing something voluntarily for religious reasons and feeling obliged or being required, such is the nature of some religions. The burqa when it is worn by women for cultural reasons has very little to do with sensible covering or even tasteful dressing as it is understood in the west (perhaps apart from Aintree). I do not interpret the hiding and isolation of women behind burqas as an act of kindness by men.

I think in this particular instance, the man was not being particularly helpful to the woman; imo he made a public spectacle of her in front of others by bringing her to the makeup counter in the burqa -- this would be an extraordinary thing to do if it was a western/ non-Muslim man who did it. I would personally see such behaviour as controlling or even abusive, as I would assume that a woman would be capable of picking out her own makeup thank you very much, or getting a female friend to help her if she didn't speak English. As I see it, this man was picking out makeup for another individual to wear for his own benefit in the privacy of their home; as far as the OP states, the woman had little or no input into the decision.

Without knowing the whole conversation there is no way anyone can assume she had asked him along for help or if otoh he had decided she needed some gussying up and had taken her along because he needed a patch of skin to match the colour properly. There is no basis but personal attitude either way, for me or for anyone else, to back up any interpretation of what the OP witnessed.

OP -- As far as giving the 'evil eye' I'm not sure the burqa-wearing woman would have seen it and I assume your expression was aimed at the man? One of the things about the burqa is that you can't see what sort of evil eye or otherwise you may be receiving from the wearer and you can't figure out if you have managed to convey anything to the wearer by your expression unless she speaks. Accessibility in the verbal and visual sense is another western virtue that people shouldn't be willing to toss overboard lightly imo even in the name of tolerance. The French idea that a civil society involves acknowledging the acceptance of shared values is a compelling one.

Well said math

By the way i don't have a designer wardobe!i loath labels but i do have fantastic clothes and love to dress up too the lines! And yes u gave short dresses too to wear in my own private enviornment!

I knew lots of Muslim women. One of my neighbours is irish and married to a Muslim man. She is not allowed by herself after dark.

mathanxiety I'm with you. It certainly sounds quite likely the man was being controlling. Imagine having to be taken to a make up counter by your husband. Imagine having to don such a restrictive garment whenever you step outdoors, because your culture demeans you so much as a female that you are not considered safe enough for men to look at otherwise. Imagine being so brain-washed that you think donning such a ridiculous garb is a good thing and in some way "empowering".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current increase in wearing of the burka has much more to do with the radicalisation of Islam in recent times and is not traditional to many Muslim cultures at all. Therefore wearing it in the West, particularly as some sort of misguided protest, is political and designed to inflame in the extreme.

What worries me most though is that it just might encourage attitudes that women are somehow asking for it if they don't wrap themselves up.

I'm just heading out in the sunshine for a run, in a vest top and shorts. Something that no burka clad women will ever know the joy of, poor souls.

You just know, my none muslim friends can tell its me...they jsut know and if dony know its me il approach you.

Could everyone please READ what mama2plusbump has said. She is an actual real burqa wearing woman. Not somebody who has got their opinions about Muslim women from The Sun or Daily Mail. As she says, stop assuming Muslim women are all oppressed. That's like thinking all women in revealing clothes are whores.

Good point. mama2plusbump can you tell me if I went to a Muslim country and went running in my shorts and vest top, would my cultural choices be tolerated there?

I wouldn't have said anything either she chose to wear it or she is feeling forced either way nothing that someone says in a shop will change that. I do wonder the point of makeup if you can never be seen in public in it though! (disclaimer: I don't wear any makeup at all most days so may be biased)

I don't see a difference in forcing someone to wear a burkha against their will, or forcing them not to wear a burkha against their will. Both are wrong and women should always have a choice about what they wish to wear. As should men of course.

Nijinsky are you saying that Burqa wearing IS accepted here ? Just a read of this very mild liberally oriented thread shows you that it is NOT accepted. And, what is so great about running in shorts and vest ? I find the idea that we have to show off our slim, toned bodies all the time, for the judgement of strangers, a kind of tyranny.

Depends what muslim country you go too?
But for me its not a cultural choice but a religious one! Please dont tell me why i choose to wear it,i believe its a religious choice and certainly is. Ot part of my culture or heritage.
I have dds and it will be there choice to wear it if they choose to.
Im glad i live in a country where i can wear what u choose een if i get sworn at,thrown beer at,shouted it,chased by dogs! Not to mention my young dds abused in the park!

Finallyspring are you serious? What is the point in running in shorts and vest you ask? Its hot. Its less restrictive. I don't give a fuck whether anyone sees me or not. I'm training to get my 5k pb down, not do a fucking beauty contest.

And you are right, I don't accept burqua wearing. Because its oppresssive to women. Amongst Beduin Arabs, I can see the point of similar garments, to avoid sunburn, but they tend to be worn by both sexes. If men wear it, I'm happy to drop my objections. Otherwise its too restrictive and sexually devisive to be anything but sexist and to do with keeping women under control and restricting their lives.

you are being fairly oppressive there yourself Nijinsky - ignore a woman who CHOOSES to wear one and is obviously NOT oppressed

So mama2plusbump, if I went to Dubai or Egypt, for example, both of which are happy to take our tourist dollar and market themselves as tourist destinations, would I be tolerated running in my usual hot weather running gear? I ask because I have been abused by young Asian men when out running in Scotland.

gordylovessheep so remind me just why men never choose to wear one?

For the women who choose to wear it, can I ask why? What does it represent?

men choose to grow facial hair and wear robes - are they forced to?

do you know many Muslims? I hate the poor oppressed Muslim woman stereotype - such shit

I was beaten and forced to dress in 'sensible' clothes for 3 years by my white Christian insanely jelous BF - oppression is down to ABUSIVE MEN - I think they can be any race, religion or colour!

TheSecondComing I am confident I don't look like a twat, however even a woman who does look like a twat shouldn't be subjected to abuse when running because some men think they are fair game and should be covered up. Might I just suggest that your attitudes towards sport and appearance seem to be too closely entwined? And yes, I do race, and so do many others.