To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

And it would be perfectly possible to buy make up without speaking English, by pointing.

As a person from an Islamic family that does not approve of the Burkha (yes some people may not believe it but its true, not every Islamic family requires this of the women), I can honestly say that I understand why people feel it is opressive and I hold the same views. One thing I hate is the fact that it has become tied in with Islam, even by Islamists. There is no part of the Quran that states a woman should dress like this and I for one do not approve of it. It is actually a cultural thing from some Islamic states that has blurred into being interpreted by some Islamic branches as a necessity to protect a womans honour (which is a load of tripe to subjugate women through attire IMO).

But...

Some women CHOOSE to wear it. I personally believe this has come from indoctriation but I respect people's rights to have this choice. Removing this choice from a woman is equally as opressive as not giving her a choice but to wear it. Where I think we should be drawing the line in terms of its being worn in non Islamic countries is where it comes to health and safety issues or where we can, without a doubt, see that it is being used as an opressive tool against an individual woman or child. I personally think that schools should also have the right to ask a student not to wear it without fear of beind sued where they can prove it clearly violates health and safety as mentioned before. France has a different dynamic to the UK in terms of race relations and tensions so it is silly to draw a comparison IMO.

I do think it is opressive, but some women do not and opt to wear it, fair enough. People should not make assumptions based on what they think is happening.

Interesting point, Kerry.

Where has OP gone??

mathanxiety

I think the sexy underwear thing could potentially be oppressive; to say in all cases it's not or it is would be unreasonable though.

Isn't that exactly what you are saying about the niqab though?

You also state that the woman will only be showing her made up face to her husband. This is just not true. Muslim women will dress up to the nines for women only parties and events, which they have a lot of. Women who cover their faces will dress up for their female friends, not for their husbands (necessarily)

You are making the buying of makeup to be an oppressive act too - by assuming it's something she does only to please her husband. This is so far from the truth. Muslim women IMO are far more image conscious, on the whole, than british women, and it's often only for their female friends to appreciate.

(I mean about the husband not translating.)

LDN, that's a thought-provoking post. I'm with you in that I don't think anyone should tell someone else what to wear (short of full nudity in public). Personally don't like the burka but if someone genuinely makes a free choice to wear it, that's their decision and I have to respect it.

Coming to think of it, I do know one Iranian and one Iraqi. My colleague at a previous job was an Iranian trainee solicitor, her parents had emigrated here and lost everything and she hated radical Islam and was aetheist. She dressed just as I do. My doctor is Iraqi and I also know him socially, I am unsure of his religion but his wife dresses as I do and is also a doctor. I don't know if they are Muslim or not to be honest. I am pretty sure though that they live in the UK becaus they could not lead the sort of lives they wish to now in Iraq or Iran, which my friend always refers to as Persia.

Too be honest you can dress like that in parts of eygpt. But what the asian man going you looks has to do with anything? I dont really understand your point.

I choose to wear it to get closer to my lord,not for no man be my h,my father,or my brothers. I wear it to increase in my faith and choose it for myself and i can tell you i am far from oppressed by my dh lol i probabky oppress him. But you cant see past my veil, can you?

mama - what about the women I see wearing the niqab and burka when their husbands are wearing Western dress? Why is it OK for the man to show his face, but not for the woman?

Of course it's possible to buy makeup by pointing if you don't speak English - but maybe she didn't want to? I take my DH with me when I go shopping for clothes and makeup because I'm interested in his opinion on it and I enjoy being with him. If I didn't speak the language where I was, I'd much rather he talk to the shop assistant for me than that I point and hope the shop assistant understands.

Interesting how in 4 pages no-one has said 'oh, what a nice man, he's not too macho to have a conversation about makeup on behalf of his wife', isn't it?

I don't actually know well anyone who wears full covering . But there are women in DHs family who have adopted hijab off their own bat, and slightly to the consternation of their DHs who feel it may make them a target or cause them to be discriminated against, or maybe they fear it will mark them out as opressors! They don't feel it is necessary from a religious pov as they are not from an Arabic background.

One SIL adopted the hijab as an increase in the way she related to her faith after her father died. Another started wearing hijab out of a sort of muslim pride after her DH and DS were stopped and abused in the streets after the 7/7 London bombings. She wanted to assert her identity as a muslim woman, not blur it.

By the way i dress as you all do aswell if you come to my home you will see how similar i am, the veil i wear is a small part of me. Believe me i am not oppressed, i love the fact i dont have to dress a certain way, and my friend are my friend because of who i am as a person these include many. On muslim friends...im actually "normal" if only ou sW behind the veil.

I have been on mn for many yrs a regular namr changer and very rarely do i mention i Am muslim or a veil wearer because i will be judged,just how i am judged when i walk down the street in my black clothing.

mama2plusbump they didn't just give me looks. They shouted abusive remarks about my female bodily features. It was very abusive, I have to say abuse while I'm running is incredibly rare. At least where I live. Loads of women run here and contrary to what some posters on here think, often wear shorts and vests while doing so.

But if you wear the burqa for these reasons, why does your DH not also wear it? In fact, why do male Muslims in this country wear it at all? Surely they need to get closer to their lords too?

And the reason "I can't see past your veil" is because I never meet women wearing the burqua. Generally they are not employed so I don't meet them through work, they don't do the sports I do (running and horse riding) and I don't see them out and about, in cafes on their own, whatever, looking open and friendly so that I might chat to them. I see them with children in full burqa, looking as though they are rushing somewhere. I have no problem seeing past someone's veil, if I was engaged in conversation by someone wearing one I would make friendly conversation and not mention it unless I got to know her better. I would see someone as a person first. But if I were close to someone, I would mention it, because the fact that only women are "encouraged" to wear them is offensive and derogatory to me, as a woman, because of the connotations it has with it.

Im going to return to this later, my dh sometimes wears western clothings in the summer but he feels paranoid be because he knows people are jdging himfor what he wears and what his wife wear. When underneath i wear shorts, three quarters and a vest. He wears a thawb on top and is often more hot then me. So he too feels to dress a certain way becAuse of all this judgyness!

Live and let live! My veil makes no difference to your day to day life,yor attitudes do. You worry about other coutries letting you run around in clothing yet you want to stopmme wearing clothing in this country?

A year ago on a thread me n riven joked there should be a mn badge maybe the. If you see me you might smile and realise im not oppressed quite happy and content and dontgive a monkey about what you wear, or think

My dds are hungry so im off

is it oppressive for nuns then njinski

edam "mama - what about the women I see wearing the niqab and burka when their husbands are wearing Western dress? Why is it OK for the man to show his face, but not for the woman?"

Hmmn. What about Jack Straw's comments highlighting the trend of Asian men to target young white girls for sex? Many of whom are Muslim? Can Muslim men become born-again or something when they get married?

What about honour killings?

Sorry, but I just don't find a lot of the Muslim rhetoric for excusing the derogation of women convincing. I am cynical about it.

asian doesn't equal muslim

plenty of non asian men prey on women

sexual abuse and exploitation isn't confined to one religion

Poncey - some nuns still wear traditional habits (so do some monks for that matter). Not uncommon to see round here. My cousin used to wear a full habit, too.

Um, Asian does not equal Muslim as gordy very aptly pointed out.

Just because Jack straw say's it does not make it fact.

My DD (6) recently asked about this in a local supermarket, and did my best to explain about personal choice, religious needs etc. I was so proud of her when she saw past the veil, looking straight at the lady and announcing, look that lady's smiling at me, you can tell by her eyes. Said lady was lovely back and eye smiled some more! :) Each to his own-sure at times that I wear something others might think I look like a twat in:o

You are not going to change their religious or cultural beliefs by giving them funny looks in a department store. If you were wearing short and a strappy top in a market on holiday in Turkey, you might make some people feel uncomfortable

Live and let live

I might have missed it in this long thread and Google is giving too many different answers but can someone please tell me why people wear Burkas?

I mean what is the actualy idea behind covering up in public please? In other words, why aren't other people allowed to see the person's face/body?