To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

Nijinsky you have been abused when running in shorts, mama2plusbump has been abused when wearing a burqa. People all over the world have an opinion about what women should wear, sadly.

Nijinsky - I deplore any pressure, cultural, male, or legal -put on women to cover themselves. I deplore any fundementalist religious practice that compels anyone to follow a line rather than make their own decision. If the government made burka wearing here illegal my DH wouldn't be wearing a burka to equalise things in the view of Islam, but to protest against the infringement of civil liberties that criminalising women excercising free will reprepsents.

Actually he would be wearing it because I put pressure in him to do so but never mind that .

Banning, barring and fining just undermines what freedom means.

And Nijinsky, again, what is the relevance of what any other country decrees about shorts and vests? Why would we wish toset our standards of freedom against those countries? In a tit for tat way, that involves us compromising our standards of free will? That's just silly!

At the risk of getting caught up in a 100 page thread..

I think what France has done is wrong and OTT as only a very few women actually wear the Burka over there.

However I do not like to see women wearing the whole full outfit including a veil over the eyes and black gloves.

It seems far too much. Its not a Koranic (sorry if I have spelt that wrong) law. Doesnt it say that men should avert their eyes, not that women should cover up every single inch of flesh?

I think its odd that women in this liberal environment choose to wear such restrictive garments yet the women living under extremist oppression would give their eyeteeth to be allowed out without them.

I hate the stories of women having their headscarves and veils ripped off them, that must be like having your top pulled off to a western/non muslim woman.

I do not like the full covering of women anymore that I like to see women with everything hanging out. But if you ban one isnt it the same as banning another?

I do not understand why very young girls have to wear anything other than a headscarf either. Could someone explain that please?

I live in East London and I see the full Burkha and young girls covered a lot. So it is something I think about often.

Thats the thing though Gordysheep. I don't know many Muslim women. They are hard to get to know. I meet most of my friends at university, at work, through sport, when out and about. I have friends from quite a few different nationalities, but not one of them is Muslim.

Can anyone explain to me how it cannot be sexist and controlling for women to wear such a restrictive garment as the burqua when men don't wear it?

But isn't it a bit weird if the man speaks English and the woman doesn't. If DH and I were in another country we'd both learn the language and he'd be pretty fed up if I didn't.

actually, im not that sure i agree with the wearing of veils etc, it does smack of inequality and oppression to me and i would defend any womans right not to be compelled to wear one!.
What i dont agree with is assuming that just because she was with her husband buying make-up that she is oppressed!, she very proberbly has made a very thoughtful and conscious decision to wear it! so long as it is a choice freely made, whats the problem?

maybe he was buying her a present! i also dont assume that all burqa clad women have designer wardrobes, just the ones 'in my experience'!

And for what it's worth, I think that all this sniggering at women at Aintree is pretty humiliating, too. Waaay to go, Daily Mail, deliberately taking pics of women to pillory in your paper, and have other women sneering at them and men making derogatory coments - more misogynist crap

How do you know she was forced to wear the veil op??

hear hear BW!

Interesting point raised a while back that has just confirmed what I thought - until men where the burka too it can only be considered oppresive of women. ie if the wife wears it then so should the husband.

thefirstMrsdeVere "It seems far too much. Its not a Koranic (sorry if I have spelt that wrong) law. Doesnt it say that men should avert their eyes, not that women should cover up every single inch of flesh?"

Indeed. How this evolved into a such a restrictive garment which makes it difficult for the wearer to lead what we in this country would describe as anything but a normal life is all to do with the extreme radicalisation of Islam.

Actually the concept that men avert their eyes is very sensible and not at all offensive. But to interpret that as meaning that women should have every inch of flesh covered, or even cover their heads, is offensive to me, as a woman and as a human being. It is biologically unncessary. And unfortunately there is no hiding from the fact that such a strict interpretation of the Koran goes hand in hand with restricting the personal freedom of women, usually along with their education.

Has nobody thought that this woman was probably from a rich arab country and not a british resident? Lots of wealthy arabs come here for holidays, the men speak english but the women rarely do - but they shop like there is no tomorrow. She probably didn't speak english because she doesn't live in england.

In this country we have the right to wear whatever we like - which is as it should be. In Saudi or similar you might be arrested for wearing shorts - and you want women to be arrested here for their clothing choices too! You hypocrites. Who the fuck ever held Saudi up as a society to aspire to?

In DH's country you would not get arrsted for wearing shorts to go running - you would get a lot of funny looks but no more than your average niqab wearer gets here.

We don't 'have to' show off our 'slim, tanned bodies all the time', though, Finallyspring. Mine is neither tanned nor on show though I am not overweight for my height. If it gets warmer (a lot warmer) I will wear lighter clothes, because I can and because I will be comfortable in them.

I never read the DM or the Sun; they are not my sources for information on anything.

I don't think anyone can possibly come to any decision in life, especially decisions about clothing, completely independently or completely without reference to what is going on in the world outside your door. To say that a choice to wear a burqa has been made in a vacuum is ridiculous. I don't know why I came to choose the clothes I normally wear -- jeans or trousers, a sweater, or t-shirt and not-very-short shorts; I rarely wear skirts and hardly ever wear dresses. I wear low heeled shoes and boots or sandals. Why? And why the colours that I choose? Why would I not be caught dead in a lot of the outfits from Aintree? If it's all a matter of personal taste, there are still reasons why one particular choice is made over all the others out there.

TSC, I think the sexy underwear thing could potentially be oppressive; to say in all cases it's not or it is would be unreasonable though. I knew a family growing up where the wife would parade any new clothing she bought in front of her H and he would tell her to take it back if he didn't like it and I think that was oppressive. I do think however that when it comes to makeup it would be very strange for a man to basically decide or 'help' a woman with her decision, especially when it is clear that the woman will not be showing her made up face in public. The makeup will be worn in their home for only this man to see.

I don't want to get into the ins and outs of certain religions but on a female level, surely most people can choose which shade of make up they want whether they speak the country's language or not? i could certainly go into a pharmacy in any country, if they had them, to choose my own make up - burka or no burka

What's all this about the woman not speaking English ? I suspect that's also part of the repeated prejudice about hoards of Muslim woman not learning English. She may have been on holiday, recently arrived in the country, shy you just don't know. Have you all, honestly, managed to learn and speak all the languages of the countries you travel to ? Really ? So, her husband speaks more English than her. And ?

If I met someone at the school gates in a burka I'd be v surprised (v v rural here) and everyone would already know her IYSWIM. But I probably wouldn't start making conversation because I'd assume she didn't want to - that she had choosen to cut herself off by covering her face, facial expressions being how we interact. Talking to a new person I'd generally start with a smile and if it was returned a 'hello small talk ...'. Wouldn't be able to see the smile though.

Kerry: No-one is particularly speaking in favour of burka wearing - plenty raised valid questions against it. Of course no woman should be compelled to wear it - or anything else.

But that doesn't mean that it should be banned by law or that the OP is entitled to jump to any conclusion, make judgements and give the guy dirty looks!

It's the principle - not a case of being PC.

Finallyspring -- The suggestion that she didn't speak English (and therefore the man was doing her a favour) was made by those supporting the contention that there is nothing off about the scene the OP witnessed.