To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

Sure fasted -- I said that. But to choose it? A defence of "wearers" has been that many women have come to the religion late, including many British, and are choosing " freely" to cover. Why would you freely choose to diminish your worth to half that of a man? I know Muslims who don't wear and who reject what it signifies. But why accept that philosophy when you have a choice?

Like i said i havent really thought about it...

So if there were moves to ensure Sharia law takes no foothold in the UK, and that burkha-wearing in public is banned, you would object although you haven't really thought about it?

Regarding Divorce, a Muslim woman can sue for divorce. I didn't have to have my story corroborated or jump thro any kind of hoops.

ex tried his hardest to prevent my divorce, it took me three years in the english court system to get divorced, I've come out of it with less money than I had and a lot of emotional scars. I stood in a dock and was accused of being a liar by the english courts, inspite of having police and medical records to corroborate my version of events, along with eye witness accounts. And at the end even tho the courts found I was telling the truth, the judge (white and female and not remotely muslim I dont think), added that he wasnt that violent, that altho ex showed signs of violence towards the children, it was no more than being a father and my children should have unsupervised contact as soon as possible, my solicitor was flabbergasted and I have fought long and hard to prevent this. As I know my children would be at risk.

Islamically I was awarded full custody of my children, a child is awarded custody to the parent who can best meet the needs of the child usually this would be the mother for younger chidlren, if the child is old enough the childs wishes are taken into account. If the child is at risk with one parent custody is not awarded to that parent Islamically. Islamically a father is financially responsible for his children.

When I got divorced, all I asked the english courts was that ex be made to repay the debt he had incurred on the former marital home (I had paid of the mortgage on it he had emortgaged it!), and that was it, eventually that is what I got, however I could probably have bought a house for the amount of money I spent in legal fees.

Islamically, I was immediately granted a divorce, once the Imam had ascertained the reason and that there was no hope of reconciliation, he actually didn't mention reconciliation when he heard my reasons.

Islamically if a man chooses to divorce his wife he can pronounce divorce three times, however it is required that only one divorce should be given, and then there is a three month period where the couple are encouraged to reconcile if this is possible.
I dont see why that is so bad, if one party wants a divorce the other should not be able to force the unwilling partner to remain bound to them.

Before divorce, in the event of domestic disharmony, we have a system of mediation, where an Imam gets involved. This does work, I've seen couples who have begun legal divorce proceedings halt them as the mediation has succeeded.

This always happens with discussions about the hijab or the nikab, it descends into an attack on Islam in general.

Googling doesn't necessarily throw up the right answers

It's because of what they represent, of course. They don't stand alone. There is confusion over whether they're religious requirements so they represent a particular way of thinking within Islam.

They are not just "bits of cloth".

Also -- attack? Pointing out that in Islam a woman is worth half a man? You are a little oversensitive.

At our mum n tots group the door has a buzz and if its a man at the door someone always lets me know.

My goodness. I dont know where to start on how sad and shocking that is.

Gooseberry - I think there all all different reasons for wearing it. Those that come late and have to become the best muslim that they can and want to be accepted (nothing like a converts zeal). I think for some it's a faze and something they might later take off as they explore aspects about themselves or their religion. I think for some it's a rebellion - against society, against their parents (who might be more liberal) - just like many young people want to be different and again might be a faze, many are students and like many students start to take more interest in what's going on in the world and become more political. For some it's political and they are making a point about what they think being 'muslim' should be and taking a stand against the mood against many muslims at the moment and the West's involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Then of course there are those who have to wear it and have no choice.

I think one of the difficulties with non-Muslims really getting a handle on some of the veiws and feelings of Muslims on subjects like the Burka/Sharia law/marriages etc is that we are always going to be looking at these subjects from a western mindset.

I think there is a tendency to assume that people all over the world feel the same about things as we do, even if they choose, or are forced, to act differently to how we would act. Obviously there are certain basic human compulsions and feelings that we all share - we all feel happiness and sadness, we are all capable of love and hatred. But there are layers upon layers of human feelings and emotions and I think these vary considerably from culture to culture. We cannot assume that everyone wants what we want, or that everyone feels as we feel.

This has only really come home to me in recent years since I have been working closely with my Muslim boss. We are a very small, all female office, with several different ethnic and religious backgrounds - Muslim British, white British, Ghanian Bhuddist, third-generation British sikh, Carribbean Christian, and we have always had very interesting and open discussions about our cultures and those of other people around us - often disagreeing loudly! I have also had an opportunity to see my boss (and her husband who comes in to do our accounts) on a day-to-day basis and share some of their thoughts and views on things like their religious festivals and Ramadan. It is quite clear to me that they view their religion and culture very differently to how I might have thought. There are some things that are just a fundamental part of them. They don't do them because someone is telling them to - they do them because it is just what is right and logical to them. Some things that are optional within Islam, and which my boss finds a bit of a chore, she still does them because it is unthinkable to her that she should choose not to.

People have different stances on things and I think we have to remember that when making assumptions about the motivation of individuals. If a woman says "I choose to wear the burkha of my own free will" then yes, that might be a false perception on her part due to the pressure of the society she lives in, or alternatively it might actually be the truth. Just because it is entirely alien to most western women that someone might cover themselves entirely, that does not mean that all muslim women feel the same.

I sometimes think that some of the arguments made about the views of muslim women are actually a bit oppressive in themselves because of the assumptions that are made.

I do think though for a woman who has always been covered whether because of where she is from or it's expected culturally, it's going to be very difficult to throw off her covering if it was to become law. Think how difficult that would be for someone who is used to having that shield to suddenly have that taken away. I'd actually like to wear a hijab or niquab for a day or 2 just to experience it and how society round us deals with it.

Just now I've been speaking specifically about women who choose to be considered half of a man's worth, not women who grow up in it.

There seems to be greater insight, information, thoughtfulness and understanding on this thread in those who have criticised the burkha and sharia.

Fasted: the reason's you've given have nothing to do with religion really. It's to do with politics and rebellion. Attacking a ban on the grounds of religious freedom doesn't sit well with this at all.

Oh the person who wanted too see me on the trampoline and thiught it would be a youtube sensation...seriously? Get a life

Go on it would make my day a burka wearing trampoliner.

A woman is not worth half a man.

I think you're talking about legal testimonies aren't you?

The testimonies thing is dependant on the persons area of expertise, a man's testimony has greater credence if he is standing witness for sometihng he is an expert in, altho a womens testimony is still relevant, there are areas that only a womans testimony is required and accepted and no man can be a witness.

It's a lot more complicated than simply a man is worth more.

I have more knowledge in family matters in Islam, as its relevant to me, but I do know that both men and women are equal in the eyes of God, no man exceeds me in the eyes of God for the mere accident of his sex!

Of course its an attack on Islam, begin with the nikab and then there are outraged demands that Islamic marriages and divorces should not be legally recognised (altho Jewish ones are and nobody cares), it starts with trying to force Muslim women to wear what you consider acceptable and spirals from there to if I was in Saudi Arabia could I go shopping in my underwear, well no but then nobody can, none of us is asking for special dispensation to be treated apart from other British citizens, we would ask that we are given the same rights as everyone else.
Incidentally, given that I have no say in Arab domestic policy, I fail to see its relevance in these discussions, I have not contributed to Arab society or economy and if I visit there I expect to be treated the same as they treat their citizens.

I wonder if Mosques could become registered premises for marriages, that would work well, instead of having to fork out for two weddings (two wedding dresses, two mahoosive feasts......)!!!!

It might be an idea fastedwina, perhaps just wear a headscarf with trousers and long sleeved tunic-y top for a few hours (somewhere where you are unknown otherwise you will spend all day answering questions about why you are doing it).

Then you can see if you are treated any differently.....I was once wearing a jilbaab (long loose dress with long sleeves) and scarf covering my hair but not face in the queue in Iceland while the women standing in front of me bitched about how I was stupid and should learn English etc. I did take great delight in saying "Don't forget your spuds love" and warching their reaction when they accidently left them at the till after paying.

Although I must admit when I get door to door salesmen and other irritaing folk knock on my door and if their first word are "Do you speak English?" I look blank, shake my head and shut it again.......something maybe i should rethink....

I actually have a very limited opinion on the subject. I seem to agree with both sides of the argument.

Recently a friend and I visited a very popular beach near us. It has a field and when the tides outs theres sand for miles. People (as did we) tend to go for the whole day and picnic and then BBq there.

There was a large family/group of friends there who I'm thinking must be Muslim. Some of the woman wore Burkas some just fully covered up. The younger girls wore swimsuits but those who I think must have been through puberty wore the full dress not head gear though. The men wore shorts and were splashing in the pools (left by low tide) and the sea with the children whilst the woman paddled or sat talking.

I was a bit about having to swim in full trouser/long coloured suit ensemble but could see that everyone in the group was having fun.

My friend was horrified and couldn't believe they 'weren't' allowed to wear a swimsuit/bikini/shorts etc once they were older. When a few of the woman waded in up to their waists she was mortified they go in the sea dressed like that.

My point is that it's peoples perceptions. I could see a happy group of people minding their own business and enjoying a day on the beach and my friend could just see the differences which imo made them wrong.

which in her opinion made them wrong.

Fuzzywuzzy:

'There is nothing which prevents Muslim Marriages being registered under the Marriage Act 1949 but in practice only 120 Mosques are registered under the Act and unofficial estimates I have been given suggest that only around one third of the Muslim Marriage ceremonies (Nikah) performed in Britain are registered under the Marriage Act.

That answers your question. No-one on here said that we didn't want Islamic marriages and divorces to be legally recognised - we want them to be registered under the Marriage Act in the same way every other religious and civil marriage is registered in this country and for divorces of legal marriages to happen through the courts.

Islam/Allah is a fairy story to keep peasents under control as they were uneducated. Sane for all God stories. Time to get in the real world. GROW UP and stand on your own two feet. You are wasting your lives fighting about it too. I feel sorry for you, utter fools.

Same

Islam for UK LOL!! Another fairy story. Muslims are becoming more and more westernised in the UK. You LOVE it and cannot stop your youth behaving as a true Westerner. As the generations go on your culture will be so watered down and western your foolish heads will spin. Oil is what we love. Dontcha know it YET?

I think this debate should stop as educating thses religous fools about what 'us' the real British feel about them only makes Muslims feel more deluded empowered.

Well I think every poster who has given considered responses on this thread has just been put in their place by the coherent and articulate arguments in the last 3 posts.

Scary, I think a lot of couples are actually unaware that Islamic marriages on their own are not legally recognised in the UK, I've met a lot of women who have been shocked that this is the case.

Hopefully then, they will do something about it. I wonder how many go to be married at the Mosque, but don't realise they have to do the legal bit as well. Some education is called for here.

Scary: where were you quoting from about nikahs being performed without being registered being illegal? This wasn't my understanding of the situation at all and I would like to educate myself about it better

Ld, Islamic marriage contracts are definitely not legal in the UK, you have to have a civil registry.

Scary I agree that people should be told this clearly by the person presiding over the marriage ceremony (mine was my great uncle!), I do think a lot of people think because there are witnesses, they are signing a contract, the conditions are put down by an imam, and they are considered husband and wife in the eyes of the community that it is in fact legal when it isn't.