To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

'So, all these pious and upright Islamic men who want their dp's to wear burqas do not actually legally marry their women then, but just live with them and maybe have others on the side as well? Having cake and eating it springs to mind.'

Oh for fuck sake. Do you posess the power of reading comprehension? Islamic marriage IS marriage in the eyes of muslims. Most UK muslims marry legally as well but some do not, because to them it doesn't matter as they are already married. Sharia governs divorce as well as marriage and there is a framework for divorce settlements for women in islamic divorce.

If he leaves you he does not have to pay you maintenance - he only has to pay for his childcare. It also depends if you have a property and/or savings and whose name it is under.

If you are not married under no circumstances should you be a SAHM.

" Perhaps had I been wearing the face veil he would have left me alone..."

OTOH you could keep things in perspective and not use it as a reason to shroud your entire body in public for ever more...

Really i thought your interest revolved around running and free oppressed muslim women!
You dont seem very educated your views are quite narrow And you fail to u derstand what others say if ts not in agreement with you!

Oh by the way im educated and socialise individual too!

I dont know why im engaging with you still...

'i may not be civilly married but i am islamically' You are a Brit, and therefore you are not legally married, you are cohabiting. The law of the land requires that marriages are registered/a civil wedding takes place. If you have not done this, you are not married legally.

If the women are legally married, then all the liberation they need is available through the British justioce system - decrees nisi and absoluts are available. Why should there be different rules available for Muslim women? Christian women get their marriages registered by either marrying in Church or in the cases of RCs the registrar attends their wedding. Divorce is done through the
normal legal channels. Agree with Montysma on this one. If you want to use some of the British law like choosing what to wear, then you have to subscribe to it all.

TheCrackFox, a lot of Muslim women feel its easier not to have a legal marriage in england, as it is very expensive to get divorced. Islamic divorces arent as lengthy and they dont cost any money.

I've actually been thinking about this point tho, I cant figure out why it would be so terrible not to be legally married in the UK. In the event of a divorce you'd take your things and go, unless you had nowhere to go I suppose, if you're on the mortgage the house is half yours anyway, the kids get maintenance thro CSA.....and you dont get the legal bill I did......

In a legal divorce the house is half each, the main carer gets the house till the kids are old enough to leave and then the house is sold and the proceeds split at an agreed ratio. Plus the huge legal bill. Of course there could be maintenance awarded to the wife till the kids either reach a certain age or the wife remarries whichever happens first. And the kids get CSA.

Dunno, loads of people choose to cohabit it's not unusual.

It is absolutely true what you say scaryteacher. There is going to have to be a test case in the UK courts on all of this. A lot of people would be very uncomfortable with Sharia law being applied in the UK and the legal status of it is undetermined. But you hear so little about it - it is kind of hushed up, isn't it?

Why are so many MNers obsessed with muslim women? Some of the comments on this thread have seriously shocked me, you are the ones opressing us ffs with your narrow minded and bigoted opinions. I wear a hijab and I am not opressed. I have a loving husband and a great life thanks, probably better than lots of you have. Yes there are opressed muslim women just as there are opressed women of every colour and creed.

without them many women would not beable to et an islamic divorce.
these women are not tryin to claim the protection of law, for them marriae is a reliious ceremony and act of worship.

well not strictly true as a nikah marriage is a contract with both the bride and groom have the liberty to define various terms and conditions of their liking and make them a part of this contract. It can even be a temporary contract as in the case of mutah marriages.

Jewish people have their own laws for domestic purposes ie marriage and divorce. Why would it be wrong to recognise Islamic marriage contracts?

And nobody secretly gets married, everyone knows that Muslim people have their own religious ceremonies as do most religions! It's not a big huge secret where we hide the fact we're married!

Goodness!

Without an Islamic marriage contract a Muslim couple do not see themselves as married and would not live together as husband and wife.

'Oh for fuck sake. Do you posess the power of reading comprehension? Islamic marriage IS marriage in the eyes of muslims. Most UK muslims marry legally as well but some do not, because to them it doesn't matter as they are already married. Sharia governs divorce as well as marriage and there is a framework for divorce settlements for women in islamic divorce.'

Yes, I can read and comprehend, and I have a degree. The whole point I am making is that there is no marriage unless it is a legal marriage. There should be no other law governing marriage and divorce but British law, and there should be no framework that governs divorce but that of the UK courts. Those who do not have a UK marriage certificate are not legally married. I do not often advocate the French way of doing things, but I think in this they are correct. The Civil ceremony takes place first and is the legally binding one - the religious ceremony of whatever flavour if wanted can be held later.

Those Muslims who do not legally married are therefore not married by definition, and are cohabiting.

scary i dont care if im leally married do you et it? i didnt know it was a leal requirement to reister nikkah?

and if i had a leal divorce but not islamic one i wouldnt beable to et married aain in muslim community, that is the reality. i feel like im repeatin myself.

the reality is by disallowin islamic divorces and marriaes you would be preventin muslims ettin married and muslim women bein able to be free of oppressive husbands.

that is real not some idealoical or what they #SHOULD do is so and so

and there are seperate jewish courts, which overn similar matters, and i believe they have a riht to exist as well, but it seems its just shariah courts that everyone ets worked up about, its just the name, if it wasnt iven that name and it was just an imam in a majid conductin nikkah and divorce who would care? its just hysteria

animation, i dont wear niqaab i wear jilbaab and i am a western woman...havin been born, raised, educated in the west, only speakin enllish, etc etc and of course i make friends with non muslim women!! and in this area people dont seem to have similar prejudices and will happily talk to you and befriend you.

We're not "obsessed with Muslim women" Partyhats. We're discussing an issue which is currently in the news. Get over yourself.

and of course can do face to face it has been repeatedly stated that women who wear niqaab while at mothers toddlers roups etc take it off...

The Jews ensure that a registrar is in attendance at their wedding if their synagogue isn't licenced to keep a marriage register, so they fulfil the letter of the law.

You don't care if you're legally married Nailak? Then I hope you're not financially dependent on your husband, own your house in your own name, have sufficient funds to support your children, should your husband leave you. Or indeed should he die, and everything is in his name, because in that instance you will run into problems in laying claim to his propery and would be dependent on the goodwill of his blood relatives who would inherit much of his estate through the rules of succession.

Anyone,

When My Son go's to our local newsagents, he is ordered to remove his hoody. When my DH fills his motorcycle with fuel he is ordered to remove his helmet.
Why are Muslim women not ordered to remove their veils. Why is it my DH and DS are being discriminated against?

What's the point of being legally married tho?

Dont a lot of people prefer to cohabit (regardless of religion)?

The Islamic marriage contract allows a man and woman to live as a married couple.

I'm genuinely intersted in this point, getting a legal divorce was the most traumatic experience ever. The Islamic divorce I was given with ease (for which I am very grateful).

Nailak (don't want to give the impression I'm picking on you, I'm responding to your points)

"and of course can do face to face it has been repeatedly stated that women who wear niqaab while at mothers toddlers roups etc take it off..."

To be honest, thats not really very much, is it? Women's lives in this country are more than toddler's groups. And what would you do if you encountered a father at a toddler's group?

What about the women you deal with in shops? Or people you pass in the street? How can you even speak properly if the full burka covers your mouth and another woman in the street asks you a question? Because to me, it looks like it would make speaking difficult.

Nijinsky perhaps Nailak will be supported by the Islamic community is she gets an Islamic divorce and is left penniless? I don't understand how it works because as you say, she won't be entitled to anything unless it's in her name too or if she has her own savings put away.

Interesting turn on events on this thread. I am not sure if it is clear that in this country the prevailing law is English, Scottish, etc... sharia and any other type of 'laws' do not take precedents. And it will stay this way until the legally and democratically elected parliament changes the law.

These facts are not hard to find out though. If you have internet access particularly. I have little sympathy for someone in a culture which provides protection to married women who do not avail themselves of that protection. In life there comes a stage when as an adult you become responsible for informing yourself and making sensible decisions. Unless you are oppressed of course, which might be a perfectly valid excuse.

www.islamic-sharia.org/children/islamic-perspective-on-child-custody-after-divorce.html

Why would any woman consent to that? Losing custody of her children if she remarries and losing them when when they reach a set age?
It reads to me as if the whole thing is stacked in the mans favour

No, in Scots law, Scots law prevails. In England and Wales, English law prevails. I cannot see how the decision of an informally constituted Sharia law tribunal would trump law in the official UK courts if a point of UK law were at principle. We are also a signatory to the ECHR which trumps domestic soverignty in matters which clash, and indeed any relevant European law. I am simply not aware of any test case involving the validity of Sharia law in the UK courts, though family law is certainly not my specialist field.

scary i dont care if im leally married do you et it? i didnt know it was a leal requirement to reister nikkah?

and if i had a leal divorce but not islamic one i wouldnt beable to et married aain in muslim community, that is the reality. i feel like im repeatin myself.

the reality is by disallowin islamic divorces and marriaes you would be preventin muslims ettin married and muslim women bein able to be free of oppressive husbands.

that is real not some idealoical or what they #SHOULD do is so and so

and there are seperate jewish courts, which overn similar matters, and i believe they have a riht to exist as well, but it seems its just shariah courts that everyone ets worked up about, its just the name, if it wasnt iven that name and it was just an imam in a majid conductin nikkah and divorce who would care? its just hysteria

animation, i dont wear niqaab i wear jilbaab and i am a western woman...havin been born, raised, educated in the west, only speakin enllish, etc etc and of course i make friends with non muslim women!! and in this area people dont seem to have similar prejudices and will happily talk to you and befriend you.

If you are a British citizen like any other, as you stated repeatedly, then you are subject to British laws like every other British citizen. And everyone else has to have their "religious marriage" legitamised under british law. There are good reasons for this. They keep tabs on births ,deaths and marriages. It avoids, bigamy, accindental incest and fraud. Why should you be above that?
Or are you only British if it suits?