To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

I am sorry to say that some posters here are the reason I posted upthread that multiculturalism in this country did not work.

You are not legally married though Nailak, so applying to the courts for a divorce would be irrelevant as you are not married but cohabiting and thus not protected in the eyes of the law. You only have common law rights, and they do not amount to much. If your partner dies you have no right to his estate as you are not his wife unless his will states that you should inherit. You may want to check that it does. You would not be entitled to widow's pension, as you are not his wife and so not his widow. The law in UK gives you protection and you choose not to avail yourself of it.

You might choose not to marry again in the Muslim community, but legally, if you had a British marriage certificate, and then a British decree absolute you could marry again whenever you wanted. Legally married Muslim women can be free of their oppressive husbands through the UK courts as can legally married Jewish and Christian women - what makes you a special case?

So, being able to wear haute couture under your burka makes it all alright then?

no i enuinely didnt know that it was a leal requirement hence me askin the question!! lol

and as for the only british if it suits are you sayin that everyone who commits a crime is no loner british? because that seems to be your rationale,

i didnt see the point in reistry marriae but now you have told me the point i understand it a bit better and have no issue with tellin my dh i want it.

scary i meant if i was to be leally married, perhaps i didnt make that bit clear. my husband has no estate for me to inherit.

i understand your point now, you are sayin it is my choice to abide by islamic rules and not consider a british divorce enouh for me to reamrry and i could choose to marry out of my faith.

so perhaps i should say for muslim women who choose to follow islamic rulins concernin marriae and divorce the shariah courts are a liberation for them. however they could choose not to follow their reliion instead.

oes to check the previous pae for any posts that need replyin to

Divorce under uk law is equal. Husband and wife and the same rights and must follow the same procedure.

Why does islamic divorce have separate rules for the woman?
the man has it easy as all he has to do is is tell his wife that he is seeking a dissolution, or talaq. And do the set 3 proclamations and there is nothing the woman can do to halt it.
Whilst a woman will not be allowed to divorce without the permission of either her husband or an imam or scholar who oversees the process. She must make a solid case for separation, such as abuse by her husband ? and her word must often be corroborated.

She must attend a series of meetings at the sharia council to exhaust all possibilities of reconciliation. The husband is given several chances to respond to his wife?s claims before a final decision is made by scholars. If the husband still refuses a dissolution, imams may grant one.

So why the difference as surely if both are equal both should have the same rights on divorce.

The people posting in favour of burkha wearing and the unfairness of Sharia law seem much less well informed than others on this thread. The cry of ignorance for questioning the burkha and sharia really doesn't apply.

Prejudice only comes with ignorance. This is not prejudice, most of it. This is well informed opinion, from scary, math, nijinksy. There's no way there can be an accusation of prejudice.

erm as for the comments on the previous pae, i am quite able and willin to work myself if i was in the situation inwhich i didnt have a husband!! my husband doesnt have any property, we dont believe in interest, he doesnt have a house. he doesnt even have a bank account, he ets paid in to mine and if he needs money he asks me for it :)

islamically i wouldnt be entitled to a lot of the stuff you are sayin, in case of divorce whats mine is mine and his is his, and he has to pay maintenance for his kids, therefore if i was leally married and then divorced i wouldnt accept more then this anyway.

so a lot of the reasons you are sayiin and protections within marriae dont actually apply to me?

cantspel i dont know enouh about that to be able to comment.

if you seriously want to know the answer cantspel then use the internet and find out from someone with more islamic knowlede and the better ability to explain then me, i have to o now but i could pm you some videos and links by knowledable people.

btw if i see a women in a skirt and call her a slut would that be prejudiced?

nailak you really have to get the letter 'g' fixed on your keyboard, your text is hurting my eyes !!! :)

Yes, it is a legal requirement for you to register your marriage, for your own protection as much as anything else. It's not entirely about the estate either; it's about who owns the house, what rights you would have over that and your kids if your partner predeceased you. Your position is much stronger with that piece of paper.

My fil is dying, and it is amazing how many financial institutions (including HMRC and the Probate Office) will need copies of my pils marriage certificate when we come to sorting out all the legalities and financial stuff after he's died.

I think the problem that many of the non Muslims on here have is that that we are bound by the law in whichever part of the UK we live in. We accept if we live elsewhere we are bound by the laws of that country (Belgium in my case). It seems that in some cases Muslims want to put Shariah law (like in the case of marriage) above the law of the UK, and to us that is wrong - I can't choose which parts of Belgian law I adhere to (don't like the cost of the car tax, will keep my cars on UK plates), so I have to abide by all of it; the same with UK law and Shariah - the UK law has precedence.

scaryteacher legal marriage protection is not just about financial matters, it is also about being allowed to make the decisions about your husband's medical matters if, goodness forbids, he ever gets ill. And vice versa. I am sure others will correct me if I am wrong, but where and how to burry cannot be decided by non-relatives (and a co-habetee is a non-relative).

nailak what I don't understand is that you say you are British born and bred so how can you not now know about the legal requirement of marriage ?

nailak i dont need any links as it is clear as the nose on my face that your rights are not equal to that of your husbands. The truth whether you like it or not is that the only way you can divorce islamicly is either with your husbands permission or an imans permission so your rights are only allowed if a man says you can exercise them.

You might be trying to fool yourself that you are equal in islam but you clearly are not.

'islamically i wouldnt be entitled to a lot of the stuff you are sayin, in case of divorce whats mine is mine and his is his, and he has to pay maintenance for his kids, therefore if i was leally married and then divorced i wouldnt accept more then this anyway.'

At least you would have the choice, and the law would be on your side in keeping your kids as well. It doesn't matter what you are entitles to 'islamically' it is what you are entitled to legally that counts.

MaisyMooCow "you really have to get the letter 'g' fixed on your keyboard, your text is hurting my eyes !!!"

I could not work it out to start with too. There are probably some crumbs behind the key. (I do not have this excuse for my terrible spelling! )

bemybebe - that depends on what Lasting Powers of Attorney are in place; if my fil had made one and not included my mil on it (and how I wish he had), then she would have no input into his care. There comes a point where hospitals and social services are taking the decisions anyway.

scaryteacher, that's not really correct. In English law, religious marriage is not recognised but neither is common law marriage. I think that's right. There is no legal requirement for nailak to register her religious marriage, unless she wishes to have recourse to the law as per the Marriage Act. Unmarried partners that split up can sit down with a mediator if they wish and decide on the terms of the separation. It is just not enforceable in court. The grey area with Shariah Law is that the shariah courts are deemed to be arbitration courts and so the decisions are enforceable, which makes it a bit of a sneaky way to get Islamic law into our courts. I always think that it would be advisable for parents of children to be married, but it's not a legal requirement.

All of the muslim ladies (except one, I think but this thread is a bit long now!) have been very patient in the face of some pretty hostile questioning. I have major problems with the patriarchal nature of Islam and the way in which it is expressed, but why would I have a problem with individual women and treat them with anything less than respect? It is clear that nailak et al are perfectly willing to answer questions, so why so aggressive?

AyeRobot "
All of the muslim ladies (except one, I think but this thread is a bit long now!) have been very patient in the face of some pretty hostile questioning. I have major problems with the patriarchal nature of Islam and the way in which it is expressed, but why would I have a problem with individual women and treat them with anything less than respect? It is clear that nailak et al are perfectly willing to answer questions, so why so aggressive?"

I think you would have to be very imaginative to suggest the questioning on here has been anything other than gently inquisative. There does seem to be this attitude held by some people that Islam is beyond question, and that to have the temerity to do so is some kind of affront.

Questioning differing attitudes, values and cultures is perfectly normal and indeed healthy when different cultures meet.

However, sex discrimination is an area of law which is just as legally protected as racial or religious discrimination, and that is my answer to your final question.

ayerobot why do you think anyone here is any more or less aggressive to muslim women posters here than to any other poster?

AyeRobot, it is correct see here:

'There is nothing which prevents Muslim Marriages being registered under the Marriage Act 1949 but in practice only 120 Mosques are registered under the Act and unofficial estimates I have been given suggest that only around one third of the Muslim Marriage ceremonies (Nikah) performed in Britain are registered under the Marriage Act. The remaining unregistered wedding ceremonies are in fact illegal under s75(2)(ii) of the Marriage Act and the Imams involved could face up to 5 years imprisonment but it is a crime the Police seem to simply ignore

This issue of unregistered marriages appears to be a problem which is unique to the Muslim community and my information is that Sikh Gurdwaras and Hindu Temples have happily registered under the Marriage Act so as to ensure that their marriage ceremonies are legally valid. Similarly Rabbis, Catholic Priests etc all insist either that a marriage is legally registered at the same time as the religious ceremony or that a civil marriage certificate is produced before any religious ceremony can go ahead.

Oh, thanks scaryteacher. I didn't know that. I actually think that's bonkers but then I think that the whole Marriage Act needs scrapping and starting again.

I still think that repeatedly quizzing Muslims from other countries about why you can't do something in an entirely different country (like najinsky with the running) is like interrogating and Italian Catholic about Irish Abortion law. Are you a litigator, najinsky? Because I think we have a different definition of gentle.

AyeRobot "I still think that repeatedly quizzing Muslims from other countries about why you can't do something in an entirely different country (like najinsky with the running) is like interrogating and Italian Catholic about Irish Abortion law."

That may appear so on the surface but the basic principles of muslim dress-code are the same whether you are from Iran or Tatarstan and come from the same (exactly the same) fundamental texts. There is nothing wrong about quizzing people who accept those principles how they can justify them and how they apply in their day-to-day. I learned that there is a lot of double-standards and downright hypocrisy in islamic laws (say one thing, do another thing). The French decision to ban burka is also rife with controversy. I hope nobody was offended by what i said (no offense was intended), but I also have no interest to pussyfoot around an issue that has a lot of unease with me.

I didn't know about the legal requirements because none told me. I don't research the laws behind everything I do so sue me. Now u have made me aware I will be happy to abide by the law. They should tech that in citizenship lessons at schooling

Scary what matters to me is Islamic laws so how is it irrelevant. As long as it doesn't go against UK laws obviously.

I saw this in another thread

Tg no offencr but you look better from the back

Tg2 what?

Tg3 u cnt be offended she said no offence