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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

1001 replies

Gingefringe · 11/04/2011 16:45

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

OP posts:
MaisyMooCow · 13/04/2011 00:37

Nailak I'm not critisising you just merely pointing out that it is unusual that you don't realise the legal issues around marriage considering you're British born and bred. When I was at school they didn't teach 'citizenship' lessons. I suppose I learnt about British law as a result of education, friends, family and watching television etc. Perhaps if you are immersed in a Muslim community which doesn't adhere to British marriage laws then that could explain your ignorance on the subject. If this is the case then maybe this is something to be highlighted and needs to be taught in schools.

MaisyMooCow · 13/04/2011 00:41

Scary what matters to me is Islamic laws so how is it irrelevant. As long as it doesn't go against UK laws obviously.

With all respect to Islam and Islamic laws you follow, at the end of the day you are also a British citizen so should make it your business to understand British law for your own sake. Not just in relation to marriage but in all aspects of life.

AyeRobot · 13/04/2011 00:42

I am uneasy too bemybebe, as I am with all religion. And of course the same texts are used in different countries, but that applies to the Bible as well. The interpretation, application and practical undertaking of that text differs between countries, hence my abortion law comment. An Italian catholic can explain the religious theory but there is no reason for him to know or to be able to explain the legal application of it in Irish Law.

nailak, do you think you will get legally married now? Will you let your friends know about the law? You could start a campaign Grin

Well, I've learned a few things from this thread, so whether or not it was a journo who started it, I am glad.

spiderslegs · 13/04/2011 01:03

I really haven't read all the thread, & yes, the religious laws have many meanings but, if it was a man in a head to toe covering, led by a woman because some texts would have him incendiary, his sexuality so bold & frightening he must be covered, what would you think??

bemybebe · 13/04/2011 01:05

I would think take this bin liner off his head!

spiderslegs · 13/04/2011 01:06

Because I would think, bollocks to the lot of you, set the poor man free.

Let him live & feel the sun.

spiderslegs · 13/04/2011 01:07

& Bem, yes - take the fucking binliner off his head

LDNmummy · 13/04/2011 01:24

Just returned and see this has now spiralled into a more serious level of ignorance.

"Nailak - would you consider though making friends though with a western woman? I assume that if you chose to wear a burka have you have also chosen not to make friends with us women - because you can't do a face to face."

Above being one of quite a few examples.

nailak · 13/04/2011 01:26

My mum habits doesnt want2 marry coz of inheritance and I have many non Muslim family and friends so I don't think unwashed unaware because of community immersion I am sure a lot of people are unaware otherwise someone would.have mentioned it. I would definitely want to get registered now as i wouldn't want to break.any laws.i

GothAnneGeddes · 13/04/2011 01:50

Scaryteacher - fyi many of the main mosques insist that a couple have either already had the registry office marriage prior to their nikkah, or that they have the registrar come to the nikkah so the couple can be legally and religiously married at the same time.

When I was arranging my wedding, the registrar offered to come to the mosque before I'd even asked, so I presume it's a normal occurrence. DH and me got married three times, the UK civil, nikkah and a civil service in his country, so not all Muslims are afraid of paperwork.

In Islamic law and custom, marriage should be a public declaration of a legal commitment, so many scholars promote civil weddings and actively discourage shady 'weddings' with no legal status.

I wish people would get over the idea that Muslims are some monolithic borg. People have very patiently (again) explained that Muslims are different, being human beings and all that, but we either get called doormats or hypocrites for our troubles.

mathanxiety · 13/04/2011 02:32

Nailak and Montysma etc.,, if you have not registered your marriage civilly (legally) then you are held to be a common law spouse and you have nothing but the good will of your so-called H to depend upon if it all goes tits up for you. You are living in a fool's paradise in other words. Sharia marriage laws are absolutely not a liberation for any woman.

'what matters to me is Islamic laws so how is it irrelevant. As long as it doesn't go against UK laws obviously.'

Nailak and Montysma, I can't believe how little you know about British law, which is basically the substance of British history. I am Irish born and educated and I am streets ahead of you.

Islamic/Sharia law is fundamentally in opposition to British law because British law presupposes equality of all citizens as a fundamental foundation, whereas Islamic law does not; it distinguishes between men's rights and women's rights. Islamic law/ Sharia law is basically the law of God as broadcast and interpreted by the Prophet. Those who can interpret it do not require any specific training, just a position of leadership and a band of followers to give the interpretation some sort of influence. British law is the product of hundreds of years of British history and is based very broadly on ideas derived from Judeo-Christian/ Greek culture. Very generally, it seeks to balance the rights of the individual with the interests of society. Hence all the various freedoms individuals have in the UK -- of conscience, speech, dress, association... British law guarantees you the right to be a practicing Muslim woman even in a country where the Monarch is the Head of the Church of England. Sharia law guarantees that you would be killed as an apostate if you tried practicing any religion other than the state-favoured one in places like SA if you were born a Muslim, just as an example of the vast differences.

Both Catholics and Jews operate their own marriage tribunals; in the case of Jews as I explained earlier the Bet Din grants religious divorces, and in the case of the RC church the process of annulment decides whether a marriage was valid in the eyes of the Church. A devout Jew or Catholic would probably not remarry in a church or synagogue without first obtaining a decree from either church -- in the case of Catholics, the RC church would not allow a second or subsequent marriage in the church unless the first marriage(s) had been declared invalid first anyhow so a chirch second marriage would be out of the question, not sure how the Bet Din works in that regard. But a Catholic of Jew would both be free to marry in a registry office without the dispensation of the Tribunal or the Bet Din no matter what. What is being claimed here is that Sharia law or Islamic law is the only thing that matters, obviously out of pure (and shocking) ignorance of British law. There is also a good deal of misinterpretation/ignorance of what the RC church holds wrt marriage, but that is par for the course here..

Nailak, you can't actually adhere to Sharia and British civil law at the same time. They are fundamentally opposed. Proponents of Sharia in the UK are by their very existence and actions spitting on British law and the hundreds of years of history behind it and on everything it stands for. One of the basic elements of British law is that there is only one law, for all, regardless of your state in life, your religion, your ethnic origin or who you may think you are.

The posts where people are saying that Islamic law is the only thing that matters to them are truly scary, and imo they prove that the French are absolutely right to have done what they have done. It is high time that Britain followed suit. Until then we will go on living in parallel universes.

Morloth · 13/04/2011 04:19

How does the face veil thing work in a bank or something similar? Like einstein's husband I have to remove a helmet if I am entering a bank, do the same rules apply to the veil?

Is the new French law about nobody covering their faces in public? How is that going to be applied? Will wrapping a scarf around the lower part of your face to keep the cold wind off count? Because I do that and so do plenty of others. What about helmets?

Animation · 13/04/2011 06:03

LDNmummy.

Can you tell me how practically new face to face friendships can can be fostered if you wear a burkal. I can't visualise it. Infact how do you engage with anyone - children, women, elderly people ... when your sole purpose is to protect yourself from sexual interest from the opposite sex.

It's ALL become about sex!

And this preoccupation is like cutting off your nose to spite your face - everyone gets shut out if your face is covered up.

alienbump · 13/04/2011 07:35

Slightly off at a tangent but something that I'm curious about having read the responses from the women who have pointed out that they remove their veils at all female gatherings, ie Mum's and tot's, what happens or would happen if you knew their was a lesbian or bi mother included in the gathering?

mumoverseas · 13/04/2011 07:36

Well, when I'm back in the UK for the next few weeks I will continue to smile at women in burkas/niquab and will greet them with 'As-salaam allaykum' as I have always done. It is very rare that this has not been responded to, often with surprise and normally a huge smile (you can tell from the eyes if they are smiling).

So, if any ladies in burkas are greeted in this way by a blonde woman in Bluewater, then it will probably be me Grin

CoteDAzur · 13/04/2011 08:14

" the basic principles of muslim dress-code are the same whether you are from Iran or Tatarstan and come from the same (exactly the same) fundamental texts"

Not true. There is no "Muslim dress code" except for modest attire and perhaps a head scarf (a lot of religious women don't wear them). Quran, which I guess is the "fundamental text" you are talking about, only mentions modesty and covering shoulders & bosom with the head cover.

My late grandfather was a "Hajji" - a religious man who did the Hajj to Mecca. He never ever wore anything other than Western clothing. My grandmother is almost 90, still does the Salah (prayers on the rug), and has never even worn a head scarf.

Veils and burqas are traditional to some parts of the world where Muslims live, but they are not "Muslim dress code". Just like some Muslims do FGM and even think it is a Muslim thing, but it is absolutely not.

montysma1 · 13/04/2011 08:18

""""Nailak and Montysma, I can't believe how little you know about British law, which is basically the substance of British history. I am Irish born and educated and I am streets ahead of you."""""""

Are you confusing me with somebody else mathanxiety.? I refer you to my post further up. "Just as catholics who have been granted an annulment, (which would in theory allow their remarraige within the catholic church.) have to also obtain a legal UK divorce.................bla bla bla.

I am well aware of British laws, being British and non muslim and am also in a position to be well aware of how the annulment process works. I have not written one word which would infer that my understanding of British marriage legal requirements it anything other than you state in you long post.

I am well and truly married, in a christian relious ceremony, and it is well and truly registered.
Jeez.

Animation · 13/04/2011 08:29

Mumoverseas.

I would also like to smile and say "hello" to women wearing burkas - perhaps next time I'm in the shopping mall I will try! You say those who wear them are up for that?

I will look into there eyes for a crinkled smile back. Smile

lesley33 · 13/04/2011 08:36

A few women where I live actaully wear a veil that means you can not even see the women's eyes.

mumoverseas · 13/04/2011 08:49

They are still human you know Wink
I have always smiled and said hello. It is clear from this and other threads that they have enough negativity to deal with and I think a smile is more than welcome. I have occasionally had short conversations with some ladies (in my particularly shite arabic) but I have found that it is the effort that counts Grin

Gooseberrybushes · 13/04/2011 08:50

Crumbs the first word I learn in a new country is hello.

mama2plusbump · 13/04/2011 08:52

Ahh il probably smile straight back and go hiya in my strong london accent!
The person whonasked lesbian and bi i havent thought about it to be honest and i wouldnt be to fussed. Its about thw men, same way if someone was gay i wouldnt lift my veil for him either.

At our mum n tots group the door has a buzz and if its a man at the door someone always lets me know.

Gooseberrybushes · 13/04/2011 08:57

I simply cannot understand wilfully accepting a philosophy in which I am worth half a man. Here I do admit defeat.

I can imagine being brought up into it, if you never know any different. But to choose it? Shome mistake surely.

montysma1 · 13/04/2011 09:09

Is that not completely illogical? If the idea is to prevent impure thoughts about those bad old bits between knee and navel, then the it would make sense to cover yourself in front of a lesbian. Given that a gay man would not find you alluring even if you danced naked round the room covered in chocolate and giving away tenners, then covering up in front of one is a wholly pointless exercise.

fastedwina · 13/04/2011 09:17

Gooseberry - if people are brought up and surrounded by a religion, generally they just accept it and get on with it especially if they are experiencing nothing negative from it - it is what they know and understand, same as most people in the world . They don't really think about - until a bit older where they then might start questioning it. Then there are those in some muslim countries who don't have a choice no matter what they think or feel - but that's a different topic.

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