children can make their own mind up about religion when they grow up...

[AliGrylls]

Okay I have just read this on another thread but this is a statement I hear quite a lot and want to ask the question.

If all you teach your child is atheism how will they make their mind up about religion when they grow up because they have no religion other than atheism?

They will know nothing other than what you have taught them so they have nothing to make their mind up about - they will be atheist, by default. If people genuinely want their children to make their own mind up they have to provide them with a reasonable alternative (ie, Judaism / Christianity / Islam).

I don't actually know any adults who have been brought up atheist who have thought all of a sudden "I believe in God, I am going to go to Church".

And I can't spell arsing misogynist

Winter

You have an amazing talent. At completly twisting what people have said to start an argument.

Geez if you were left alone in a room with a paper bag you would start an argument with that.

The definition of a Christian is someone who follows Christ. That's why it's called being a Christ-ian and not Church-ian or Bible-ian.

Of course, many of us do also take notice of the Church and the Bible, but we do so primarily from a viewpoint of following Christ, not the other way round.

Hope that clarifies what I meant :)

How did I twist this:
"Christians follow Christ, we do not follow the problems of the Old Testament which Jesus came to overthrow, and we do not follow "the Church"

Other than by pointing out that it quite clearly is not true? You keep talking about liberal british churches, as do others. These are not representative of what it means to be "christian" around the world. The biggest group of christian are roman catholics, followed by a great many other branches.

I twist nothing. Perhaps you just haven't followed the conversation very well?

Solarpanel, speak for your own interpretations, and stop applying them, wrongly, to other groups.

If you believe yourself to be a Christian, Chickens, I'm sure you are. Its a very personal thing. I'm sure you'll agree though that a very large number of Christians act and think very differently to you and others, often due to the variety of christianity that they are aligned with.

I get what you mean Solar. For those who truly follow Christ's word it is quite different to following what the church says in some cases

Of course there will be others who are different and we are only speaking for ourselves.

Chicken You said:

I struggle with the concept that the Bible should never be questioned as it's the word of God

I agree and struggled to but I have come to realise it depends on which school of thought you belong to.

Some people may intrept it literally, but other like me may intrept it as historical document which is quite different.

I get where you're coming from Winter. It is why I don't affiliate myself with any one denomination. You have to sign up to their 'rules'. Of course all churches pick and choose which bits of the Bible to adhere to and which bits to ignore. My MIL says she is an 'a la carte Catholic'

I find the Bible fascinating as a historical text, Roseflower. I interrogate my Minister friend endlessly (Theology PhD )

The Irish kind then?

I don't think Solar understands that Catholics are Christians. Catholic doctrine does not tell you that you can just ignore the whole Old Testament, and it certainly does not tell you not to follow "the Church", nothing could be further from the truth!

I don't think that Christians are supposed to blindly follow a church, they are supposed to think for themselves, question and interpret. (if a church is expecting blind obedience I would suggest they are in the wrong one)-in fact, exactly what DCs should do with their parents. Blindly following without question seems dangerous to me in any walk of life and at any age.

Supposed to in who's book? I don't think you know that much about organised religion to be honest.

I am going by Cof E- in my experience people question and are encouraged to question.
Have you actually been to discussion groups held by a church and met other church members Winter? They are all different and hold different views-very different views in some cases.
I read an article in the paper today about someone at a confimation preparation class as an adult-she was very surprised to find it was nothing like she thought, it involved a lot of wine and stimulating argument.

The church would be dead if everyone followed blindly and it didn't grow and change. People ideas on this type of thread are based on hearsay or half forgotten ideas from childhood or ideas that are way out of date-e.g. people have brought out the idea that unbaptised babies don't go to heaven-an idea that went out way before I was born-and I am quite old!

I find this 'all Christians think or do' really odd as they are all so different.

Winter I would be quite interested to hear your own personal experiences of religion

I alreaedy said that some people can be Christians without being sexist homophobic arseholes. But many can't. Because the vast bulk of the powerful myth peddlers in the Abrahamic traditions are very keen on the inferiority of women (even though they all it 'specialness' or some sort) and controlling the diet and sexual behaviours of the followers in order to make the followers obedient.
As to what Jesus might have said or done, well Jesus is a mythical figure so 'he' said or did whatever any particular storyteler wanted 'him' to have said or done at the time.

So in other words you can't find any examples.

Examples of what? Sexism and homophobia in the Christian church? Well let's see, how about the endless ongoing rows about whether or not women and gay men can be officials within the organisation (ie be treated as full human beings) or not?

No that Jesus directly said

Roseflower, Jesus is a mythical figure. He didn't exist. The name 'Jesus', like Robin Hood, seems to have been one of the generic names for 'hero of a folk or moral tale'. So what the mythical figures may have said would depend on who was telling the story and why. As I have said before, the people most keen on peddling myths as facts are the ones who want to use such myths for their own advantage.

So you can't find any evidence.

Futhermore what authority do you have to say with no doubt he is a mythical figure? Are you a historian?

Your in a very small group of people if you think he did not exsist at all.

I heard a quote somewhere that there is more evidence for the historical person Jesus existing than for the historical person Julius Caesar.

Is that true do you think? Anyone know where the quote is from?

In my experience we base most of our opinions on rumour and impressions of the "sort of person" that follows a particular teaching, idea, etc - few people do their own research or even read books about the historical accuracy or otherwise of religious texts, the prevailing cultures at the time of writing, the potential motivations of the authors etc.

I would agree that religion obviously damaged you SCGB-it must have done for you to have so much hatred-which can't be healthy.

I thought it was generally accepted that a man calling himself the Son Of God existed in the relevent region at the relevent time? There are other historical texts which allude to such a person. Of course whether you believe he was who he claimed to be is a matter of, er, faith I mean, we have David Ike.

the claim re Jesus and Julius caesar seems like some evangelical person called Voddie Baucham said it. never heard of him myself.

I have looked at Wiki (I know, I know...) and it seems that a distinction is made between 'historical Jesus' and 'Jesus Christ'. I'm fairly sure (but prepared to be proved wrong) that there are Roman texts which mention this PITA man riling up the Jews.