to believe that beyond all reasonable doubt

[OurBetty]

there is no god?

Trust me if there was a giant booming voice in the sky and a giant dude sitting on a cloud people would believe the following :

1 it's a government conspiracy
2 it's aliens
3 it's terrorists
4 it's god
5 it's someone pretending to be god
6 that was some bad prawns I had last night

So lots wouldn't believe and it's better for the story if it's about free will and blind faith - it just makes more sense than 'proving' it.

I thought he moved in mysterious ways. A booming voice in the sky is very cliched. I think he could do something a bit more original.

I am genuinely amazed that in the year 2011 people still believe in this crap. My friend the vicar has a nice big house, lots of locals who admire him and he gets paid; the church makes a fortune - so I understand why some people perpetuate these stupid myths. Others just don't seem to question things and go along with the herd.

I was sort of joshing you with the big booming voice scenario- what sort of 'proof' were you thinking of ?

And I don't think its particularly tolerant to call it 'crap' - you are not unreasonable to not believe. Surely you afford those who do the same level of courtesy? They don't believe it's crap, they believe in their own experiencing or culture/faith.

I'm not a believer but then the other day I was thinking about the chicken or egg situation and it really did freak me out.

I believe in an intelligent life force but refuse to subscribe to organised religion.

No it isn't though, Maryz! If I saw a flying saucer and you weren't there to witness it, it would be up to me to prove that I saw it, not up to you to disprove it, wouldn't it?

If someone snatched your bag in the street, it would be up to you to prove it, not for everyone else to try to claim that the incident didn't happen!

This thread is getting repetitive because some people struggle to get to grips with reality.

Enjoy your dreary, homophobic, sexist traditions and fairytales, and leave reasoned arguments to those capable of them.

Bhuddism is as close as it gets imo. Evolution of the mind and the notoion that nirvana or heavan is a mental state rather than a place we go to after death. However, as a religion it's still too organised and I'm not sure about the karma thing.

But did the egg come first or the chicken? The more I think about it the more wierd our existence seems. But then I have just downed a bottle of red.

Enjoy your dreary, homophobic, sexist traditions and fairytales, and leave reasoned arguments to those capable of them

So when are the reasoned and capable coming then?

DP and I LOVE that, Boojab: "Dreary, homophobic, sexist traditions and fairytales" - spot on!

Yep religion's for the deluded, desperate and daft!

YANBU OP.

You can prove a negative. You can define something and then prove it doesn't exist. You can establish the premises of the argument and then construct a mathematical proof that it is logically impossible for something to exist. Wrt the Christian God it is not very difficult.

The simplest example rests on the empirical observation that evil exists, and the Christian definition of God.

Evil exists.
God is wholly good.
God is omniscient.
God is omnipotent.
Evil cannot exist if God is wholly good, knows about evil and has the power to stop evil. Evil does exist therefore God cannot exist.

Or

Nothing can come from nothing.
Evil exists.
Therefore if God is the Creator of all things he/she must be partly evil.
Therefore God as the defined Christian God does not exist.

So you can always say: yes but I don't accept that evil exists, or you could say, yes but I believe if a different God than the Christian God. But under certain established premises and definitions it's possible to prove a negative.

However I am a Christian, and a Christian can sweep aside such finicky nonsense!

Another essential element of Christianity is faith, as everyone knows. It's central. You cannot "have faith" in something that can be proved. You can't "believe" in something you've seen and experienced empirically. Therefore it's an essential element of Christianity that what you have faith in is difficult to believe, impossible to prove and easy to deny. Phew for us.

On top of that, we can say that humans don't understand the divine purpose of things that appear to be evil: and that our lives and suffering here on earth are a small and insignificant part of our eternal existence.

And on top of that, we can say that with God, anything is possible: that maths can prove that God does not exist, but the existence of maths proves that He does. (I like this one a LOT!)

So basically, it doesn't matter if you can prove it or not

I should think very many if not most Christians are aware of the disproofs of God. So, there's no telling us. Even if you speak very slowly and treat us like very stupid children and even sneer and poke fun. After all we wuz thrown to tigers once.

Agree that Jesus was awesome. Though I would say is awesome because I am one of his followers. Religion and God just aren't the same thing AT ALL - gets on my nerves that they get lumped in together. I am with most people about the church, particularly church history, and have an incredibly hard time with the church, christians, religion. I find it hard to 'get' religion tbh. Probably because it's all been the other way around for me, I got to know him first. Has anyone ever introduced you to him Frog? I don't think faith is about feelings actually, though it can be and often is. I also think that science and religion are compatible just that science has a lot more to find out about yet. I think the 6 days in genesis were probably something like 6 ages (though tbh God could do it in 6 x 24hr days, just that he is more thorough ime and tends to take a loooooooong time to do things). I think the bible is awesome, the OT isn't vicious in the way you think, actually passionate, fierce, human, dramatic, divine, incredibly loving, like a love letter. God hates evil mainly because it harms the ones he loves - that would be us. He's pretty vicious about evil in the OT which should tell you a lot about him really.

It makes me laugh when people say that God doesn't exist, not sneery laugh just kind of gasp laugh. That's like posting up that you believe, categorically, that my mum doesn't exist. Get on a train and come on over and I'll introduce you to her, that's the only way you'd know for sure she is who she says she is, my lovely mummy.

Was it really that long. Cripes.

What are you talking about, Jesuslovesyou?

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Let's praise him!

The existence of maths doesn't prove there's a god though Gooseberry.

GoldenHaze you'll have to do better than making silly generalisations like that. It's a cheap shot, and not even an accurate one.

"Yep religion's for the deluded, desperate and daft!"

Depends how you look at it Golden

Well, no, it doesn't, I just love that phrase because I love maths and its beauty!

I'm not allowed a proof that God exists, because then I wouldn't be able to be a Christian. We'd all know for sure, and where's the faith in that?

Gooseberrybushes do you think evil actually is largely dependent on free will? God let us choose how we behave and what choices we want to make, therfeore bringing a large amount of suffering onto ourselves/fellow human beings.

If God stopped every evil act then he is stopping free will.

Funny how you haven't mentioned the New Testament at all Golden.

The OT is about how human beings messed up and weren't really doing what God had intended. In the NT Jesus comes to set them straight.

OurBetty, it's definitely not "going along with the herd" to have a faith in the UK in 2011. It's the opposite, as it's very unfashionable these days.