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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to believe that beyond all reasonable doubt

448 replies

OurBetty · 19/03/2011 21:42

there is no god?

OP posts:
Roseflower · 25/03/2011 13:07

Er... I really think you need to research this.

From the Times magazine

"Creationists believe that God made current life-forms from scratch. The ID movement takes no position on how life got here, and many adherents believe in evolution. Some even grant a role to the evolutionary engine posited by Darwin: natural selection. They just deny that natural selection alone could have driven life all the way from pond scum to us."

seeker · 25/03/2011 13:08

"Intelligent design is just Creationism in a stolen tuxedo"

Roseflower · 25/03/2011 13:11

It really isn't. Research.

seeker · 25/03/2011 13:14

I have. I stand my my statement. Tell me how I am wrong.

FlorenceCalamityandJoanofArc · 25/03/2011 13:14

Research yourself, even the Discovery Institute state that its actually just neo-creationism. The guy who invented the term said so too.

Roseflower · 25/03/2011 13:15

Ok.

In a nutshell.

Here is the sentence you need to look at.

"(ID) just deny that natural selection alone could have driven life all the way from pond scum to us."

It's pretty self-explantory.

seeker · 25/03/2011 13:18

So - evolution, but God did it.

How long did it take?

Roseflower · 25/03/2011 13:26

Yes-kind of. Natural selection & God together. A bit of both.

A happy medium of evolution & creationisim perhaps. But there is a difference with it on it' own as opposed to pure creationisim.

Im not saying I support or believe it- just saying that is esentially and academically what it is.

frantic51 · 25/03/2011 13:28

Seeker I'm afraid you are.

Sorry, but the idea that, because someone doesn?t immediately dismiss, out of hand, the ID theory, they must be a Young Earth Creationist, or, at the very least, view Young Earth Creationism with a degree of credibility, is a standard ?wool-pulling? exercise and a pretty cheap lame one at that..

I most emphatically don?t think, or believe, that the earth is less than 10,000 years old; I wish this to be absolutely clear. Nevertheless I was prepared to read this with an open mind.

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3622692/Intelligent-design-is-not-creationism.html

Of course, I quite understand that, because Stephen C Meyer is a Christian, absolutely nothing he has to say is going to be worth even listening to. [Hmm] The qualifications he holds from reputable seats of learning mean nothing because he is clearly ?daft? and ?delusional?... Obvious, innit guv? The fact that he was one of the architects of the theory doesn?t matter because Wikipedia, so beloved of so many, tells us that, ?It is widely accepted in the scientific and academic communities that intelligent design is a form of creationism? Oh well then, widely accepted in the scientific community must mean, ?it is so?. Hmm

There was some talk earlier in this thread about the Bombardier Beetle.
Wikipedia (again) tells us that this has been ?proved? to have evolved because
?All necessary intermediate stages have been found in extant beetles within or closely related to the bombardier beetle family, with each intermediate giving a definite advantage to the organism.[5]?
The reference is:
^ a b Isaak, Mark (May 30 2003). "Bombardier Beetles and the Argument of Design". TalkOrigins Archive.

Apart from the fact that, once again, we have the erroneous, implicit certainty of the intelligent design/creationist interdependency, (yawn) I have to say that I am quite taken with this guy. Smile He freely admits that, ?This does not mean, of course, that we know everything about the evolution of bombardier beetles; far from it.? And I almost entirely agree that, ?The gaps in our knowledge should not be interpreted as meaningful in themselves.? (though I?d probably substitute ?can?t necessarily? for ?should not?.)

Can I see that Bombardier Beetles?, ?features, behaviors, and distribution nicely fit the kinds of patterns that evolution creates.? ? (And it?s nice to do things, ?nicely?) Of course I can, contrary to popular belief, being a Christian doesn?t automatically mean I?m stupid. Is it easy for me to accept that, ?Nobody has yet found anything about any bombardier beetle which is incompatible with evolution?? Absolutely. But while I can?t comment on ?lots? of people (don?t like ?lots?, too vague, very unscientific) I can say, categorically that, just because, it seems impossible at the moment to explain exactly how the beetles evolved, I haven?t ?jumped to the conclusion? that an explanation will never be possible. Hmm

I can?t help but notice that he asks the question, ?Does evolution disqualify an intelligent designer?? and then fails to answer it in the affirmative. Sure, some people do ?reject the idea of evolution because they feel that it takes away any creative role for God?, and there is no doubt that some people are ?apparently uncomfortable with the idea of uncertainty, so uncomfortable that they try to turn the unknown into the unknowable?. No quibbles there from me; so far, so good. However, I am also inclined to the opinion that there is no doubt some people are apparently so uncomfortable with the possibility that we may never be all-knowing that they turn the possibly, ?unknowable? into the, so far, ?unknown?.

He makes the point that, ?Millions?? Shock (bit more precise than, ?lots?, I suppose) ?of people around the world have no trouble believing in God and accepting evolution at the same time.? Yup, that?s me; on current scientific evidence, sign me up! (Disclaimer ? I do, however, reserve the right to change my mind, in the event of new evidence turning up.)

He claims that, ?ID arguments all share the same fallacies; they are all based on a combination of ignorance combined with a concept of design that is indistinguishable from evolution.?. What is this ?ignorance?? Ignorance of empirical evidence? Surely not? Maybe an inability or unwillingness to interpret the empirical evidence in the same way as science; the relatively new ?establishment?? Can it be that I have here an intelligent, articulate, educated man saying, to other intelligent, articulate, educated folk, ? You?re a theist you don?t interpret the findings the way I do, so you?re ignorant?? What is this, ?concept of design that is indistinguishable from evolution?? I there any, remote possibility that it could be, in fact, evolution? ?Course not! The very idea! Shock Silly, little me! Blush

Remember that the great Richard Dawkins said that living systems, "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose"? That , ?for a purpose?, is the tricky bit, isn?t it? It can?t possibly have been designed ?for a purpose? because that might just possibly imply Intelligent Design; some kind of Architect, with ?Natural Selection? relegated to the role of builder. So, despite what we see, we clearly can?t even begin to think of beginning to trust our senses and experience, because we know that, ?the supernatural?, is merely a figment of our less intelligent peers? imaginations. (gavel) ?Off with her head!?

Only matter matters and the mind cannot exist because it can?t be seen! Yet I don't think anyone on here would deny the existence of human imagination so, with that in mind, let?s ?pretend??

Imagine two people in a room, with a thermometer. The thermometer tells both people that the temperature in the room is x degrees. There can be no argument, it?s there and both can see the evidence. Nevertheless, person A says ?My but it?s cold in here? while person B peels off a sweater and says. ?You?re joking, surely? It?s boiling hot!? Can either say that the other is ?wrong?? By what criteria? Because they don?t perceive the temperature in the same way?

onagar · 25/03/2011 13:46

Frantic. Maybe I mistook where you were heading with that last paragraph, but it fits fine if the existence of god is purely subjective. If religion is now saying "god is real to you if you feel he is" that is fine.

I'm fascinated and heartened to hear that creationism has retreated a further step. Not as dramatic as when (most) Christians surrounded on the story of Genesis, but still a step in the right direction.

So now instead of god running evolution on a day to day basis he just gives it a nudge now and then?

Of course there's the same really obvious flaw in that. If god is having a hand in the design why is he doing such a poor job. When he sees things turning out badly why not come in an extra day a week to nudge it even more.

The biggest stumbling block for Intelligent Design has always been that the design is not very intelligent.

Roseflower · 25/03/2011 13:54

ID theory is over a decade old. It's hardly the 'hot of the press' stuff.

frantic51 · 25/03/2011 13:58

Onagar my religion, to my knowledge, has never said anything different. When I stand in church and say the Creed, I don't say, "There is one God..." but "I believe in one God..."

I don't believe there is the flaw, as you say. I refer you to one of my previous posts: If one believes in God/superior intelligence/magic man in the sky, call it what you will, one can't then set out to judge Him by human standards. I may think His design isn't very intelligent but then, who am I to question?

frantic51 · 25/03/2011 13:59

Oh bugger these italics! Will I ever get the hang of them?! Hmm

GabbyLoggon · 25/03/2011 14:06

On the deep subjects we seem to know some good questions; but few
fundamental answers.

I think a lot of us seek comfort in one way or another. Because that is our nature. If the prof "boy" Cox is right, one God would have a considerable job on his/her hands.

Perhaps it is a Coaltion of Gods. ( I wish one of them would leave the "mike"
switched on. It can be revealing.)

frantic51 · 25/03/2011 14:16

Gabby Grin Sure, there is an element of seeking comfort in either viewpoint. For some, or perhaps most, people of faith that must be a contributing factor. There are also people who find the concept of the "unknowable" very scary and so it is easier to deny any possibility of its existence. It is more comforting to them to "be" right, rather than to "seek" for what is right knowing that they probably won't find it.

Most people, in truth, today, don't give it a moments thought one way or the other and if asked "Do you think God exists?" will probably answer off the top of their heads.

UnquietDad · 25/03/2011 16:13

Nothing to do with being "anti-establishment" or the "tables turning" since Darwin. Science is what it always was - a collection of theories where the accepted view is the one backed up by the greatest body of evidence. As more evidence is discovered, other theories are accepted which modify or enhance these.

What it is not, and will never be, is a bunch of wild assertions which fly in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

Roseflower · 25/03/2011 16:18

As more evidence is discovered, other theories are accepted which modify or enhance these.

And of course, utterly disprove them.

FlorenceCalamityandJoanofArc · 25/03/2011 16:23

that goes without saying, although its harder than you'd imagine to disprove utterly, thats what science is. And what religion is not.

UnquietDad · 25/03/2011 16:35

Yes, and scientists are, given suitable weight of evidence, usually quite happy to have early theories replaced by better ones - which often wouldn't have been reached without the earlier, imperfect one being there.

Roseflower · 25/03/2011 17:01

It's all very well using science to argue about how life started and evolution. Whilst I appreciate some theories have been put forward, one thing I just dont think science can explain fully is our emotional side and morality.

That to me is what makes someone human and more than what evolution paints us as. Everyone is so unique. Its seems almost mechanical and simplistic,maybe even depressing to attribute to nothing more than some scientific process. That for me is what science cannot fully explain.

FlorenceCalamityandJoanofArc · 25/03/2011 17:12

Then you don't understand the beauty of science. Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without needing to believe there are faries living in the bottom of it as well?

Roseflower · 25/03/2011 17:15

Thats a very poor explanation.

frantic51 · 25/03/2011 17:16

UnQuietDad Yes, but as things stand today we are a possibly infinite number of theories away from discovering the "truth" if, indeed the "truth" can be discovered. And here we all are; today.

Stephen Hawking has now, more or less said that the Philosophy of Science is finished with; we don?t need it any more. They know what they?re looking for, they now just have to find it. Yet those who believe in God are the ones showing ?arrogance? ( Isaak, Mark) And the ones always accused of having ?closed minds?. Hmm

You decree God doesn?t exist because you have no ?evidence? and you don?t ?understand?. That is absolutely fine; you?ve never met Him so? I feel I know that God exists because I have experienced Him and I don?t need evidence need ?show and tell? because I?m not here trying to change anyone?s mind. I don?t ?understand?, and I?m not afraid to admit that I don?t ?understand? and I have no need to ?understand? because the incomprehensible holds no fear for me.

Earlier on in this thread you posed some, to my mind, rather simplistic questions. I'll take just one, by way of example, if I may? Do I accept the sky is blue? Well, taking your scientific ?proof? path, no. I do accept that it gives off the appearance of being blue because during the day, the air in the atmosphere is scattering sunlight. The air scatters short-wavelength light more than longer wavelengths, so what we see is a deep blue. However I do ask the questions, ?what is ?blue? anyway? Is your blue the same as mine?? It?s almost certainly not the same as my DS?s; he is colour blind.

I freely admit I am not a scientist but then, no more are most folk and that's why it is so easy for the Scientific "establishment" to "tell" us all what is "fact". I generally dislike getting into subjects in which I have little or no expertese but I read this, which is written at a level I can at least begin to try to comprehend and which I have been told (by a physicist) is a good place for people without a scientific background to start .

www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-universes-dark-matter-and-dark-energy.html

Sorry, but it seems to me that Theists aren?t the only ones accepting something on precious little ?evidence.? No-one knows exactly what dark matter is apparently, and it can?t be seen but it?s "obviously" there because they can see the "effects" of it. Hmm Okaaaaaaaay? I?ll listen, but if it?s ok with you I?ll remain just listening until you have something more concrete to show me.

I willingly confess that I don?t fully understand the Big Bang Theory even (much less String Theory!) but I do know no scientist has built a cosmos in his lab and recreated it! But they have scientific evidence they tell me (though it has to be forensic evidence, no?)?.Still listening?.

Stupid, all this, isn?t it?

Nailitorelse · 25/03/2011 17:19

What a load of bollox!
According to statistical regression analysis as reported on the BBC News website earlier this week, religion is going to die out in 7 countries within the next 50 years or so. These countries include, Australia, Canada, Finland, and Switzerland. I can't remember the other 3 countries but I do recall thinking that it strikes me that it is the more progressive, successful and stable countries which are going to benefit from being religion free!
Now, there's a message to relay to the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope......and anyway, what on earth has any of this got to do with parenting?!

FlorenceCalamityandJoanofArc · 25/03/2011 17:22

It wasn't an explanation.

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