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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to believe that beyond all reasonable doubt

448 replies

OurBetty · 19/03/2011 21:42

there is no god?

OP posts:
Gooseberrybushes · 20/03/2011 00:51

Yes but Roseflower the problem is that if God is all powerful then he could give us free will and still prevent our suffering. He didn't have to give us the choice of "evil". I have read a convincing free will argument somewhere but I can't remember what it is.

Yes, Pepsi, re the herd: I mean on mn it does all stampede in one direction rather.

Roseflower · 20/03/2011 00:55

OurBetty also contradicts herself as she said much earlier "Think ... the varying degress of people's faiths in these religions" and then later the herd statement.

If everyone beleived in different degrees they cant possibly be a herd or no difference would exsist

Roseflower · 20/03/2011 00:56

But if there is no opposite to good where is the free choice? If there is no light there is no dark.

Jesuslovesyouwoh · 20/03/2011 00:57

Actually gooseberry there is quite a christian presence on MN sometimes. They're all probably out on the razz tonight, unlike boring old us (have you got your sunday best ironed and ready for tomorrow girl?)

Gooseberrybushes · 20/03/2011 00:59

I think it's a choice. I've made my choice, I'm not very good at it, but I know what I believe.

I think it's impossible to prove that other gods don't exist. Hinduism might be empirically ludicrous but the existence of evil is "built in" and catered for with Kali and so on, so it's not logically impossible, I don't think. And the same with Islam. I'm not sure though. Maybe someone else has theology and philosophy under their belt and can explain a bit more.

Gooseberrybushes · 20/03/2011 00:59

I'm not in the country. It's not tonight!

Gooseberrybushes · 20/03/2011 01:03

Yes Roseflower. Without pain there is no pleasure. But that could just as well be a symptom of the conflicted human condition as evidence for God. Saying free will is impossible without evil is saying that God faces an impossibility which can't be overcome.

We don't need it anyhow. You don't, I don't. I just plough on through and trust that we'll understand someday.

Jesuslovesyouwoh · 20/03/2011 01:06

aw chaps! chaps! Don't lets have a boring discussion about religion/philosophy ay? The OP is talking about God, not religion. You know as well as I do you can't 'prove' he exists, that's he awesome and gorgeous and who he says he is - all those promises that are TRUE

CheerfulYank · 20/03/2011 01:07

I believe in God, and Jesus, and am not homophobic. Nor do I put up with sexist attitudes.

But I'm quite content for you to believe whatever you like. :)

SueWhite · 20/03/2011 01:07

I actually love the idea that one day the sun will die and the universe will end. I think it's amazing. If you can imagine that it's like imagining a tiny fraction of infinity.

Gooseberrybushes · 20/03/2011 01:08

Jesus, your enthusiasm is touching. But I like these boring discussions.

Jesuslovesyouwoh · 20/03/2011 01:08

oh! and OP YADBVVVVU, as you asked.

(is that sneery? Confused)

Gooseberrybushes · 20/03/2011 01:08

Actually I'm a bit uncomfortable with your name.

Roseflower · 20/03/2011 01:09

I dont think its an impossibilty- I think its what has been left as our choice. This is for me personally,the way I see it.

Jesuslovesyouwoh · 20/03/2011 01:10

Hi Gooseberry! I love you too! Jesus loves you baby! Loves me too, remember!

Gooseberrybushes · 20/03/2011 01:12

Yes I do respect your view, you've obviously given it thought. Mine is, that would mean it's impossible to have free will without the existence of evil, and that faces God with an impossibility, which is not supposed to happen. Or be possible.

Gosh philosophers must have so much fun with all this.

Jesuslovesyouwoh · 20/03/2011 01:15

Well yours is making me feel uncomfortable too Gooseberry, but I didn't think it was polite to mention it.

Jesuslovesyouwoh · 20/03/2011 01:21

oh sorry! [serious holy face emoticon] - get with the times Jesuslovesyouwoh

WinterOfOurDiscountTents · 20/03/2011 01:45

I've never understood the argument that we, humans, couldn't possibly have happened by mistake and must have been divinely created. I mean, don't you see all the design faults? We aren't that great! If a god designed us surely he would have done a better job? And why did we need millenia of evolution just to become as crappy great as we are now?

And the gubbins about how unlikely it was that everything came together at the right point to create life in just such a way...couldn't have been random..again why not? It just so happened that it all came together in that way, but what of silicon was dominant rather than carbon, who's to say a silicon based life-form wouldn't have arisen instead?

Its just arrogance is what it is, the belief that we ourselves are so wonderful that we must have been created with purpose and forethought.

Gooseberrybushes · 20/03/2011 02:05

I don't think it's arrogance about us, especially? I don't think that's the "gubbins" theory.

My understanding is that it is about all life on earth, not just man. In fact man is the sinning part of life on earth. The intelligent design theory (I'm not that up on it Confused) has looked at some animals and plants (really on thin ice here) and found that it would have been "impossible" for them to evolve and turn out the way they did. I'm sorry to be so vague, I don't know much about it, but I think one of the animals was a beetle with an exploding tail. Two elements of its physiology would have had to come into creation instantaneously and simultaneously for the creature to exist.

I don't think it's the idea that humans are so special that is supposed to point to a creator God tbh. It's more like all life on earth is such a marvel.

Perhaps someone can correct me, but that's the argument I read some time ago.

Gooseberrybushes · 20/03/2011 02:06

To be honest I'm not even sure if it's called the intelligent design theory, though I know there is such a thing.

But I do know that an important part of it was looking at animal and plant life which "couldn't" have evolved, as it were.

AnnieOnAMapleLeaf · 20/03/2011 02:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents · 20/03/2011 02:18

But it isn't impossible. WE know this because we understand evolution.
And simple logic tells you that your god seems a little short sighted if he designs a beetle with an exploding tail but leaves you with the testicles on the outside and your big brain in your fragile body completely un-redesigned.

You're talking essentially about the watch-maker argument for the existence of a god. It doesn't work though, not least because you don't have another planet or universe to compare this one too. For all you know there could be a universe next to ours that makes us look like a first attempt with papier mache, a rock to the watch.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents · 20/03/2011 02:22

the other problem with religious argument is that whenever they get to something illogical, they just play the ineffable card. You ask: if your god created the universe, what created your god...all you get is a big cloud of ineffable.

Gooseberrybushes · 20/03/2011 02:27

Winter: I don't think you understand what I said. Yes I understand the T of A argument. Yes, I understand the possibility of an alternative universe.

It would not be simple logic telling you that. That's not what logic is.

This is what I was saying. There are (apparently) some forms of animal and plant life, which, with our understanding of evolution, can be said not to have evolved. That two essential but separate elements of their physiology would have had to come into existence instantanteously and simultaneously. Therefore they are not explained by evolution.

As I said, I don't know much about it, but that's part of the theory. Apparently one of them is an exploding beetle. I do understand your point, but my point is that you assume evolution can explain everything. Whereas these forms of life cannot, apparently, be explained by evolution. However, I am sure that when shown these forms of life you would say (as would other atheists and scientists) that it is simply something empirical that we have not understood so far, but will come to understand scientifically in the fullness of time, and when we do understand it, evolution will indeed offer a complete explanation.

But that would mean evolution does contain tiny, tiny elements of trust and belief. Which, of course, is fine.

I'm not a Creationist, I'm trying to explain the "intelligent design" theory. I think.