to be horrified at Starkey

[amiheartless]

the comment he made to that lad in Jamies Dream School,
was appalling,
(for people who didnt see)
there was no provocation the class was joking around about evolution, about animals are faster and this lad pointed to his muscle ..and Starkey said,

'you're so fat im surprised you can move!'
I felt for the lad, my blood was boiling
when will teachers learn humiliation does not work as a teaching technique!!!

sorry rant over,

Is there any evidence that the Professor Snape approach actually works in education? Do you get better results that way than by simply being firm and strict without resorting to personal humiliation (the professor McGonagall approach, as you might say).

My personal hunch is that professor Starkey never felt the need to humiliate his undergraduates in this way because he was then in a situation where he felt himself in control (and without the glare of the TV cameras to get him overexcited). The lot of a university teacher is, after all, a fairly fortunate one: if you are good at it and respected, it's a constant massaging of your ego. Teaching teenagers is never going to be like that. Unlike lecturing, it's a job that takes real character.

Hindeed.

sue52 I agree with your comment. I teach 11 - 18 year olds in a very mixed area. Golden rule = DON'T comment on personal appearance. I cringed when Starkey didn't just deliver the blatant insult, but reinforced it with further humiliation. The boy was breathing deeply and succeeded in controlling himself, credit to him. Starkey didn't have a clue - he wouldn't last five minutes in ANY secondary context today, students in grammars and privates along with comps would not be able to stop themselves falling asleep in that 'lesson'. Starkey's arrogance was his downfall and I hope he reflects on this during his (deserved) suspension. I think the boy actually has the skills to admit to his problems, and will hopefully benefit from this experience.

well said albertcamus

Thanks H & a

• and we wonder why eating disorders are on the increase in boys. When you see a 6ft boy weighing 6 stone it's a tragedy :(

Agree with you LeQueen.

Starkey shouldn't have said what he did, fair enough. He was probably always going to be a disaster around people of that age who haven't gravitated to him for his thoughts on history. I too bet he is a brilliant teacher and not half the things he's been called because of this.

He's probably only ever lectured students who wanted to be there in the first place, not people who have to be coaxed and cajoled into sitting still and being quiet. He got it badly wrong because he comes from a tougher and less cosseted era.

Still great tv for the programme makers. I bet they were thrilled at all this (behind the feigned outrage of an unkind comment).

But best of all, oh happy day, a reason, a real cast iron legitimate reason, at long last, to feel 'disrespected'. The class fell on that opportunity with greater enthusiasm and glee than they did for the chance of being taught anything by Starkey. What a missed opportunity and a shame.

what was missed as a storyline was that the production team had obviously gone to an awful lot of trouble to secure the dug up gold, thinking that presenting it as historical "bling" would somehow speak to the kids. and it so clearly fell flat on its face as a stunt.

just goes to show you can have all sorts of resources and the best expert in the world (according to JO) and still fail to inspire.

i'm not quite sure what point this show is making anyway. JO didn't have any qualifications and he's doing way better than someone like me who studied like a maniac through comprehensive state schooling, got to uni and got good qualifications.

the implication is the education system failed these children and yet it isn't a "system" - some went to expensive private schools some to state schools. some were given every opportunity imaginable and some probably did have things a bit tough (but others still do well even when this is the case).

we actually have fairly okay education in this country. i'd rather see the effort expended on children overseas who don't even get a chance to go to school at all - or taking these kids out there to see how privileged they actually are.

My respect doesn't have to be earned. MY defauly position is to respect someone. People can lose my respect, and do. But I would still treat them as if I did respect them I think. Because otherwise you just come over as an arse.

Calling someone fat in order to embarass them is just plain rude, whoever they are and whatever their physique. Did your DH really get that at school LeQueen? Personal insults? Straight talking, of course. As I said, it will absolutely not be the first time they have been spoken to in robust terms about the consequences of their attitude and failure to cooperate. It's a bit insulting to people like me who do have to deal with this kind of class every day. And did it work for David Starkey? Did it make them sit up and see the error of their ways. No. Which would suggest that perhaps it isn't some kind of magic cure for their ills.

And yes, if he'd engaged his brain before opening his mouth, he'd have realised that it would indeed just feed into the whole "you're disrespecting me" thing. Counterproductive.

defauly? default

And what kind of madness happened their with the bolding?

Clearly I'm still reeling after my pleasant hour with year 11 this afternoon!

there

Good Lord!!!!

The thread is about him saying "you're so fat, I'm surprised you can move".

That is a rude thing to say, and not a good way to model behaviour for a pupil. I definitely agree with straight talking. I do it every day. My year 11s, who were whinging about having too much coursework to do, were today's target audience.

But equating a robust challenge to poor behaviour or lack of work with a personal insult is muddying the waters.

There are ways of saying things too. A child might say to me "are you calling me stupid", and I might reply "no, I'm saying you're lazy - there's a difference" and that usually makes them laugh and get on with things. But you have to have the relationship with the class to do that, and for it to work. You can't just go in and insult someone and expect them to listen to what you are saying. I wouldn't!

Agree with madonna. I respect people automatically, that's the starting point.

And it's not character building to go around callign people fat or any other personal insult. It's not. It's rude. And it fails miserably as a way of getting respect and attention.

I don't think telling the kids they had failed is morally wrong (unlike the comment on the boy's weight, which was) but it's a bloody stupid way to start a lesson and win over a group of students.
it might work in certain circumstances, if you were a very experienced teacher and you were going to be working with them intensively and they couldn't leave, and you knew exactly how you were going to build them up again afterwards, but I doubt very much Starkey had really worked out what the consequences would be in that set-up.

I didnt see it, although was the talk of the preproom today- were the kids bright but badly behaved, or were they just not academic?

"They had been pandered to all their lives by the look of it and much good it had done them."

Gosh! It's so simple!

I'll tell DH that. Next time he has to physically restrain a child with EBD, all he needs to do is tell him he's a failure and it's all his fault. That'll do the trick nicely.

And I would suggest that for most of these children they have not been pandered too in the slightest - in fact their needs and desires have been disregarded totally, or wrongly fulfilled.

My DB was subjected to the sort of good old-fashioned schooling some of you are extolling. Made to parade in a cadet's uniform with his trumpet for hours in the blazing sun and then given a detention when he fainted. Told he was a waste of space and useless, told to stop being such a pansy if he didn;t like the bullying, bullies only target weaklings. He's 52 now and still hates the school he was imprisoned in. It was only the intercvention of a fluffy liberal hippy (this was the 70s) teacher that rescued him from entire failure. His experience and to a lesser extent mine is why we would do anything to avoid private schooling.

My goodness, what a lot of pontificating about what goes on in schools there is on this thread, seemingly by people who haven't set foot in one for a very long time.

I agree with everythig thefallenmadonna has said *and think I've had a very simialr day at school to her today!

Do people really believe it has never occured to any teacher to remonstrate with these pupils about their behaviour and attitude to work before? I teach in a challenging school and, believe me, there is plenty of straight-talking going on. Not personal insults though because that's just rude.

And planning lessons with some engaging activities that give pupils something to do is not pandering to them or giving in to the X-Factor culture, as a couple of posters have suggested. Talking AT pupils is very poor teaching, obviously fine at university but totally inapproprite for those pupils.

LeQueen, I'm sure there is truth in what you say about the production company wanting him to be more old-school, but he also looked extrtemely uncomfortable imo. He was intimidated by the pupils and his lack of training in behaviour management and failure to plan a lesson, rather than a lecture, showed. The best thing I could say in his defence was that it almost seemed like he was trying to make a joke and expected the others to laugh along but he misjudged the whole thing spectacularly badly.