AIBU to think non vaccination is child abuse

[alittlevoice]

There was this discussion in another thread and i thought i would make a new thread so it doesn't over taken someone elses

To me not vaccinating your child is akin to child abuse because you are putting them at undue risk of disease which is preventable due to scare mongering or from quack doctors that have long been struck off the medical register and shunned from the medical community

I hate the assumption that because there has been no reported cases it means you shouldn't vaccinate your children it's because children have been vaccinated regularly that there has not been a epidemic

leading doctors (not the quacks) have been worried for some time about the rise of mumps because of the scare mongering and children not getting vaccinated and get seriously Ill and have to be saved by modern medicine (which quack parents are always keen to take up on with there anti vaccination stance)

rubella has a incubation period as many other diseases so if your child has it and you dont know and child is near a pregnant woman and she loses her child due to non immunisation I don't understand how as a parent you'd do that to another person

So the long and short of it is why are some parents touched in the head and think they have the right for there child to possibly kill unborn children and infect younger babies too young to have the choice (and for those saying this is far fetched its as plausible of something going wrong from immunisations)

Claiming that refusal to vaccinate your children is child abuse is like claiming that access to the internet is a human right.

It just makes you look hyperbolic and a bit daft.

No excuse, Basket. Just plain cruel.

There is more mercury in a tin of tuna than a vaccine and the mercury in vaccines is a less toxic type.
Anti-vac nutjobs argue that autism is a form of mercury poisoning - there is no evidence for this - in fact the symptoms are very differnet. There is evidence, however, that the 'treatments' they propose for this 'mercury poisoning' ARE dangerous.
The MMR used to be given around the same time as the symptoms of autism first appear. It is given earlier now and the symptoms still appear in toddlerhood.
ALL facts.

Only very few cases of vaccine damage have been proven but a lot of parents BELIEVE their kids are vaccine damaged if they develop symptoms after their vaccines. This is the anecdotal evidence you get all over the internet.

at the same hoary old "when symptoms of autism first appear" cliche being trotted out yet again.

do you really think parents are deluded when they say that one day their toddler was talking and then all of a sudden they are not?

that thy were potty trained, but have ow regressed (and by htis I mean seriously regressed - double incontinece stuff, not just the odd poo in pants)

that thye didn't notice the detials of the chronic gut disease beofre vaccinating, bt just happne to notice the severe and chronic diarrhoea afterwards?

please stop with the coincidental appearance of autism bullshit.

there is so much misinformation on this thread about these diseases that I realy question how many people have made informed decisions. Some has come from the OP (medicines in vaccines anyone? ) OP and others who have mentioned mumps as extremely dangerous especially in adulthood - no it is not. It is more risky in adulthood (as with any childhood disease) but there is no evidence that it can cause sterility.

Also, the person who talked about lying in a darkened room with swollen testicles. The darkened room is for MEASLES, swollen testicles are a rare complication of MUMPS in ADULTS. honestly! This information is on the nhs website - how can people not even bother to read the basics about these diseases?!

Measles fatality rate is around 1 in 5000 not 1 in 1000 and if you check the HPA website you can see that it reached this level BEFORE the vaccine. It is higher in developing countries for a number of reasons.

Where on earth are you getting these '40% of people who get polio have long term complications' figures from? 99% of people with polio have it mildly and don't even show symptoms! Again, check the nhs website.

Some people have themselves so convinced about the usefulness of vaccines and how they are protecting their children and yet they have no idea what they are protecting their child from! Of course they won't bother to check the facts - even the OP is still spouting the same nonsense even though I posted the same information from the nhs website last night!

no parents are not deluded in noticing symptoms. They may be mistaken in attributing causality. That's why you need to rely on scientific evidence.

A case-fatality rate of 1 in 5,000 is huge! That would mean approximately 1500 plus measles related deaths in the UK each year if the whole population wasn't immunized. And a helluva lot more would be permanently damaged or disabled. Plus the NHS resources which would have to be devoted to dealing with measles complications meaning less available for other issues.

stata, I am talking about a specific piece of misinformation.

parents who believe their child has regressed into autism, on the whole, are not relying on creeping symptoms appearing at a coincidental time.

they are talking about sudden, severe, illness, onset after vaccination.

many parents will have medical approval and acceptance of their thoguhts, on a small scale, yet there is no widespread acceptance, and a reluctance to put htose thoughts onto a medical record.

all I ask is tha the misinformation of "autism symptoms appear at the same time as jabs are given" is not touted about.

Basket. An apology is helpful. I hope Buzz sees it.

My life is made more difficult by the people who call everyone who has a problem with vaccinating their child a nut job, or an idiot or an hysterical twat or worse.
It doesn't help to throw insults back. It just makes the issue more raw.
Well it does for be anyway.

Doesn't bother me, vaccines have done nothing to my child. Which is why I vaccinate all of them, up to and including swine flu.

I don't inject tins of tuna into my bloodstream. At least not recently.

It's not paranoid conspiracy theory it's a robust respect for something there is overwhelming evidence for: that time and time again big business profits take precedence over consumer safety. Healthcare is far from immune to this. Govt and business are linked. Immunisation is a holy cow to the medical establishment and there is nothing scientific about that.

Science is open minded evidence based thinking right? So if your research is paid for by big business how does that work? And if you see your respected colleague public ally pilloried for inadvertently threatening that holy cow it doesn't make for freedom of scientific thinking does it? Until there is a mass scale study of the health outcomes of vaccinated and unvaccinated children there is no evidence of vaccine safety is there?

Even with sudden onset of a problem after vax, you still haven't established causality, only one of the many criteria needed to do so. Further scientific studies to meet the other criteria have shown no relationship. There is no proven relationship between vaccinations and autism.

I didn't say it did, stat.

and you are wrong with your assertion that there is no proven relationship between vaccines and autism.

Always mystifies me why people don't do a bit of basic research before forming an opinion. If, say, you have an interest in vaccination, why wouldn't you ask nicely why people might take a different view to your own? Rather than leap straight in with extreme statements that bear no relation to fact?

Why would anyone do that? Is it stupidity? Or laziness? Or something else?

I think the US supreme court would beg to differ with that analysis.

Edam it's fear that polarises this debate. Fear of having done wrong by your child on either side of the argument.

There isn't a relationship between vaccines and autism (other than rubella vaccine leading to a decrease in autism). It's been proven through large scale independently funded studies.

And actually immunisations, if successful, eventually lead to decreasing profits for pharma. Polio was nearly eradicated until the outbreak in Nigeria. Pretty good for pharma profits! Maybe that was a conspiracy!!

The Nigeria outbreak caused by mutated vaccine strain. Doh.

I ahve worked with children who ahve been vaccine damaged: admitted by NHS, massive payouts given after fifteen eyars or so by which time the family ahd collapsed and lost everything.

I'd never give that as a reason not to vaccinate- my children had the majority of theirs- but it is real, and it is bloody awful if it happens to your child.

We don't have a system that can cope with the disabled people we have now, there is very little indeed out there for us: a few more are not just collaterel damage as someone said on another thread recently, they are destroyed lives.

I simply could not have taken ds4 for MMR: DH took him for measles. I simply could not have done it. I have lived through diagnosis twice. I honestly don't know if I could bear it again if I thought there was a millionth of a chance that I might have done something to prevent it: hence still BF'ing my toddler and spedning money we don;t ahve on sending him to places where there are children so he can develop social skills away from those impaired skills of his siblings.

Sometimes, if you have been through something horrid, especially if you have been there on repeat, you have to protect your own mental health as well. If I collapsed who would care for the boys? It woudl be far harder than most other large famillies for sure: DH hasn;t hosnestly stayed well for a very long while since the diagsnoses time (we got two in six months)- he has periods of ill health every 2 - 3 years, in middle of one now. There's me. Doing a job of trying to raise the boys, provide 24 / 7 care for two, not neglect the others and make some kind of financial stability out of it all (DH working on finances too). I have to do all I can to keep well, mentally.

Also talk me through indecent funding for your studies?

I'd really love to hear about "independent funding" into vaccine research in this country.

Its not fear for many of us, its just common sense.

Diseases that used to kill and maim many children can be vaccinated against. Sensible parents generally say "yes, we'll have some of those please", a small minority say "noo, we know better than everyone else, its all lies, big pharma, conspiracy, blah blah etc etc".

No, the Nigerian outbreak caused by the Nigerian equivalent of the MMR scare

Sorry autocorrect (Freudian autocorrect clearly) should have read independent not indecent.

MRC and Wellcome Trust for starters